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Let me start this new topic with soliciting thoughts on the idea that haiku is not English Short Poetry.

I contend that haiku is exclusively Japanese because of the linguistic construction and cultural based principals that are required in haiku.  I also contend that what is originally written in languages other than Japanese does not meet the language requirement.  That what is written in English (for example) is another genre which (for the lack of calling it anything better) is English Short Poetry.

I know this is a radical answer to many of the concerns with writting what goes as haiku in English; and, can be as upsetting as reforming the idea of the shape of the world as flat to the shape of the world as spherical. 

I feel it is time to establish English Short Poetry to help clarify what is haiku and what is not.  In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku. 

Thank you.

Wow.

That's pretty radical.

I have a question.  Okay, a couple of questions:

Do you also feel that if it's not written in Italian, it's not a sonnet --

and if it's not written in French, it's not a rondeau, a villanelle, or a triolet?

Are you saying poetry should be ghettoized by its language of origin?

cat

... or that the Malaysian pantun (spelled 'pantoum' in French and hence in English) should have a new name created for it?

That the English language honours the origins of various kinds of poetry adopted and adapted from other languages by keeping the lineage fairly transparent in the names is a good thing, imo.

I suppose a new name could be found if enough people wanted to obscure the origins of English-language haiku. 'English Short Poetry' would never do, though. It could never be a name that's confined to haiku or haiku-like poems in English, since there are many kinds of poems that qualify as 'English Short Poems/ Poetry' (that is, short poems originating in England). On the one hand 'English Short Poetry' is too specific as to country of origin and on the other it is too general a category, a general category that has been in existence for a long while and isn't going to cease to be a general category.

All of William Blake's 'Songs of Innocence and Experience' qualify as English Short Poems, for example, as does the Shakespearean or Elizabethan sonnet. Emily Dickenson's poems would qualify as 'American Short Poems' or 'Short Poems in English'.

'Short Poems in English' would be almost as useless a name for haiku-in-English as 'English Short Poems', though at least it includes all short poems in the language, whatever the nationality of the author.

I think it was Edwin Morgan, the Scottish poet
who described English language haiku, that did not adhere to the 575 format as "just wee poems"

Is that you Dennis
if so hi been a while

i find this incredibly insular in today's age
and given the net in particular where nothing spreads faster than an idea

nothing comes out of nothing
art follows on from the ideas of others
mental collectif --see levi strauss (the French writer )

does mathematics belongs to the arab world who gave us our numerals?

haiku has it base in classical chinese poetry, which was based on indian buddhist principles
if we could go back with infinite regress then who "owns" anything
Adam or the fist bacteria? -depending on your views

Classical Gaelic poetry follows a strict syllabic count too
and does not readily translate
but is it not the essence of any art-form that is important

i do believe English haiku do have the essence of Japanese haiku

First, thanks for all the replies. 

I am saying due to the nature of Japanese language, more specifically, alphabet, yet even more specifically, hiragana as each alphabetic character a succinct sound, the rhythm, the kigo, the kireji (also denoted by an alphabetic character)... these restriction/constraints make the haiku Japanese specific. 

The other points from cat, lorin, and colin (yes it's me, Dennis, Colin) are missing the above focus, haiku being the exception.  I do like "just wee poems"; and, I agree "English Short Poetry" misses the name-mark lacking a certain "how do you say".  I am proposing to call haiku haiku and the other stemming from but not haiku a different name.  Take ownership and thus clarify that which was previously known as -- HAIKU -- be renamed based upon the orginal language-culture (being that the Japanese art form, haiku, carries that restriction).

Radical... yes, even borderline nuts, but, I hope more realize we should take ownership of the resulting genre by name and literary characteristics with emphasis on language-culture. 

Cat, Japanese is not a latin-based language.  I observe that this can be key for understanding haiku/hokku writing and feel.  I feel this the crux of my proposal of a different genre.  The intermixing between French, Italian, German, Spanish (and others languages), poetic genre is a different situation than with haiku.  Haiku is a claimed Japanese genre formulated for the most part by Shiki.  Japanese poetry's transportation to the west (orginally through Portugal, if history serves) was flawed in lack of understanding hokku among other poetic forms.  Certainly, Shiki's codification of haiku from hokku held no forethought of transporting the genre into other than Japanese.  As with all exchange... something is lost in not only translation but transportation as well. 

Colin, as encounters with other cultures happen, the reactions have varied in the past from oblitheration to an absorbing embrace.  The current trend is using the idea of diversification to smooth the encounter.  Recognizing differences as steps towards understanding and "getting along" as it were, is a reasonable direction.  One of the ways we allow this diversification is by "genre".  If you mean by "insular", "isolation", then you have me wrong.  I am proposing to understand and embrace the boundaries, not, ignore their existence.  I am hoping for help in that direction.

Can blue men sing the whites?

How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?

The premises behind this strand are a creepy reminder of the crypto-xenophobia enshrined in the Matsuyama Declaration.


菊の香や奈良は幾代の男ぶり

chrysanthemum scent --
the untold manner of men
Nara has known

Or as Simpson-san (Bart) put it: wake up and smell the chrysanthemums.

John Carley

Chibi,

Do you really think you have to tell me that "Japanese is not a latin-based language"?

I find that quite insulting. 

cat

"I am proposing to understand and embrace the boundaries, not, ignore their existence.  I am hoping for help in that direction." Chibi575 (Dennis)

I agree with your contention that haiku-in-Japanese is different in essential ways from haiku-in-English, but feel that your conclusion, if not "borderline nuts" :) is at least quixotic. If you want to use a term like the one you proposed or "just wee poems" that's okay with me, but good luck getting it to stick. The word haiku is in wide use, and means something semantically similar to many people. Does the word haiku mean to English-language readers what it meant to Shiki? Not quite. Does the word haiku mean to our Japanese contemporaries what it meant to Shiki? Closer, but not quite. And how about the hokku of Buson that Shiki held up as examples: did they mean to him what they meant to Buson?

Best wishes...

Quote from: Mark Harris on December 10, 2010, 12:29:26 PM
The word haiku is in wide use, and means something semantically similar to many people. Does the word haiku mean to English-language readers what it meant to Shiki? Not quite. Does the word haiku mean to our Japanese contemporaries what it meant to Shiki? Closer, but not quite. And how about the hokku of Buson that Shiki held up as examples: did they mean to him what they meant to Buson?

Best wishes...

Yep, Mark, and haiku has been a loan word in English for quite a while. It's not going to return to being the exclusive property of the Japanese any more than boomerang or its Japanese-d version, 'ブーメラン (Būmeran) is going to return to being the exclusive property of the native Australian language group that it once belonged to. What if I insisted that, since eg. American and Japanese boomerangs are not boomerangs as I know them, then such boomerangs should be written and spoken within scare quotes, ( 'boomerang', 'ブーメラン ', 'būmeran') or be given a name to distinguish them from 'real' boomerangs?

It'd be, 'Well, too late, mate.'

Haiku will develop as it will, whether in Japan or anywhere else. I imagine there will be as many variations as there are on the boomerang. Some Japanese people may wince at some of the things that are called haiku, as they develop in Japan or elsewhere, in other languages and some English-speaking people will sympathise. But 'such is life'.

The horse has bolted, no use shutting the gate now.

Or, some, but not all, boomerangs come back but you often need to shift your ground to catch them.

Cat... sorry.  I was trying to clarify your reference, but, I did not mean to insult.

Boomerang... interesting hyperbole, as is the horse and barn door.  It is never too late for the facts.  If it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku, it is however factually something else. 

For those that have replied so far, would you be interested in proposing a name for the genre?  If not, no harm no fowl.

Thank you for your replies. 

Quote from: chibi575 on December 10, 2010, 06:52:57 PM


Boomerang... interesting hyperbole, as is the horse and barn door.  It is never too late for the facts.  If it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku, it is however factually something else. 

 

No hyperbole, Don. A boomerang, as well as the word being a loan word in English like haiku is, is as much, in its origins, a cultural artifact with associated rules of construction, form, specific materials, manner of identifying, use,taboos, mythology etc. as is haiku to the Japanese.

There are those who say, "If it ain't Australian, it ain't a boomerang", too. I've been one of them. Whether I like it or not, I have to accept that the world's conception of what a boomerang is has changed, expanded, to include plastic toys and industrial steel things designed by computers for throwing competitions, most of which don't look like or function as 'real' boomerangs as I know them even on the practical side of things. All are boomerangs now, but this doesn't mean that we don't note differences or discriminate between them.

I'm not saying there aren't very real differences between Japanese haiku, both traditional and 'gendai' and English-language haiku and neither am I saying that these differences are 'wrong' or 'right'. I agree with you that we should acknowledge the differences and own EL haiku, in its variations, and appreciate it as it develops as a genre in interplay with Japanese haiku and that of other languages besides English. We can distinguish between various kinds of haiku, but what would be the purpose of giving EL haiku or haiku in any other language than Japanese a new name?

Also, what group or individual has the right or the power to impose such a name or the cessation of use of the standing name? The original owners? Just look at history...

I'd rather spend the time appreciating the differences and developments in haiku, worldwide.

Thank you, chibi.  No worries.

Lorin, what you say makes sense to me, especially about appreciating haiku differences and developments worldwide.  I think we have to accept the fact that the Internet has shrunk the world and all kinds of art and knowledge are now available to us, and that leads to a lot of cross-fertilization.  Back when we had no option but to lay down hard cash for the journals, we had much more meager feasts of what our genres had to offer, and no way to communicate as we do here.  I would say all this has had an enlarging effect on all forms of writing (and photography, and music), and there's no way to squash any of it back into its original box -- nor should we.  Until I serendipitously became involved in haiku, I had never heard of senryu, tanka, haibun, haiga, renga, ghazal, sijo, gogyokha, and so on; should each of these also be sent back to its country of origin while what we do in English is tagged as a pale and approximate imitation that requires an alias in order to exist?

Here's something I've started wondering about since reading this thread:  If English is too limited for the creation of authentic haiku, doesn't that also mean that there can be no authentic English translations of Japanese haiku?  Doesn't that in turn mean that we who do not read Japanese have no access to the true experience of haiku anyway? 

cat

Hi my friendly explorers...

I sent a request to Dr. Gabi Greve, a good friend, and more experienced than I in Japanese culture, to send to me the different names the Japanese have for non-Japanese haiku.  Here is her reply:

maybe this is one
eisaku ha.i.ku 英作　ハイク　English-language ha.i.ku

make it a point to show the difference between Japanese 俳句 and
other-language ハイク  / HA.I.KU

maybe you find some useful here?
http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/translating-haiku-forum.html

I am not aware of any other name for ELH in Japan.

shinkoo haiku 新興俳句
Modern Haiku - Gendai Haiku　現代俳句

Experimental Haiku
Jikkensei Haiku 実験性俳句
Zenei Haiku 前衛俳句

Avantgarde Haiku ぜんえい/ 前衛俳句 zen-ei haiku
vanguard haiku
zenei haiku

http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/03/shinko-haiku.html


自由律俳句（じゆうりつはいく） free verse haiku
http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/one-sentence-haiku.html

You can quote me any time !

Gabi

_____end of message____

Also, perhaps a better example of what I am talking about is in relation to "tea".  The Japanese Tea Ceremony, certainly has a few common constructs with the English Tea Ceremony: tea, hot water, pots, cup/bowls, partcipants, room, and, ceremony; but, although similar are different in key aspects and intent.

I feel, now, most who would see so far what has been said on the subject, "Concerning English Short Poetry" have a good enough understanding of the issues presented.

I would very much like to see some ideas on naming the genre for the formerly known as "haiku" in English.

Happy Holidays and Peace and Joy to all.

Quote from: Lorin on December 11, 2010, 06:19:51 AM

I'd rather spend the time appreciating the differences and developments in haiku, worldwide.

I feel this IS a development, that now is the time to raise this issue.  After all, we are in a diversification view, we are changing.  Bombay has change to the original, "Mumbai"... eh?  ;))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai

Quote from: cat on December 11, 2010, 07:36:24 AM

Here's something I've started wondering about since reading this thread:  If English is too limited for the creation of authentic haiku, doesn't that also mean that there can be no authentic English translations of Japanese haiku?  Doesn't that in turn mean that we who do not read Japanese have no access to the true experience of haiku anyway? 

cat

Let me say that I, too, have wondered these points. 

Recently in discussing a (please forgive me to use "what was formerly known as English haiku") poem by my teacher, Professor Tadashi Kondo, (affluent in English, specifically, in realation to Japanese haiku and a Japanese native and master scholar in "renku") wrote:

falling leaves
uncovered
stars

This is a "brilliant" (intended pun) poem in English, but, very difficult to translate into a haiku (traditional Japanese).  Let me also say, English may be far less limited as a language to write short poetry than Japanese (English having 800 hundred linguistic sounds as opposed to Japanese with ~30).  What is the most difficult is to transfer culture feeling and nuances.  Within the Japanese poetic form haiku, being, small by diffinition demands a certain terse verse effeciency, that tranfering to English may be the most difficult.  But, as we absorb the Japanese perspective, Professor Tadashi Kondo's poem gives example of the opposite, that is, English in this case has concentrated a deep feeling in four English words.  My interpretation of this poem shows a nuance that can only be truly expressed in English in the use of possitioning the space of the written word and holds and folds ambiquity. (an aside -- in Japan, almost all haiku is written in one vertical line, although, as in some scrolls, there may demand for other positioning).

Some questions come to mind...  is "uncovered" verb or adjective?  By using "uncovered" is there not a deeper connection between the "falling leaves" and "stars" (plurals both but hard to show so in Japanese).  The idea of falling leaves covering while simultaneously uncovering?  This is a mastefully crafted poem.  In four English words, 25 letters, and masterful use of choice, meaning, and written word spacing, such deep meanings can be felt? (an aside: our Skyp-renku group is presenting these points to the arthor himself, so, there is a reasonable risk that we have misinterpreted his English poem altogether... I will post later the result).

Yet... almost every traditional Japanese haiku/hokku is only 17 Japanese letters!  For English to accomplish this limit of letters would constrain the number of poems to a challenging rare few.  These are just a few points that compels me to suggest we (USAians, at least ... I can not answer for other English speaking nations) form a genre-name (other than "haiku").

Cat, as well as any others, if you ever feel I have offended, please, express your concerns (here or privately).  I will be very thankful for your frankness.

I've read so many boards of this same discussion, it's become almost hard to believe.  What is the purpose?  Is it to persuade?  Haiku, worldwide, is growing ... and primarily in English.  And, even in Japan, English haiku is well received -- actually, requested:

http://kusamakura-haiku.jp/backnumber/2009/english.html

Jim Kacian, a fine haijin won this tournament as well.  The Grand Prize is awarded regardless of nationality.

The wonderful thing is, Chibi, if you really like calling these a short poem, you may.  This is your decision and I honor and support that.  For me, I write haiku in English ... and every so often, I write a really good one.  :)  I suggest everyone calls their "poem" what they want ... develop your skills in that regard as best you can. 

Perfect your skill of the Italian Sonnet (though it's primarily written in English these days):  perfect your skill in writing Japanese Haiku (though it is primarily written in English these days).  Continue to hone your skills and don't worry about it's name.  History will sort that out and in the end, I truly believe, Chibi, that your position on this will be clearly in the minority.

Anyway, that's my two cents for what it's worth.  It's great seeing you again.  I hope life is treating you well!

all the best,

Don

I also agree that Japanese and English-language haiku are different, but changing the term? I mean, haiku isn't ONLY about linguistics, is it? I like to think of haiku as art, and art evolves and changes over time. Yet the essence of haiku remains.

Besides, what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term? How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different? And who would have the authority to do this?

Shouldn't people focus on enjoying haiku, in both writing and reading it, instead of worrying about what it's called? If you ask me, if we start to worry about what things are called and categorizing them, we're totally missing what haiku is about. I always thought that haiku is about looking at the true essence of things, not about their terminology? Isn't it about sharing part of ourselves with others, about showing that we are all connected? 

Yet, here we are trying to define and categorize things so that we can separate them into their own little boxes. I honestly do not understand how such a wonderful form of expression can lead to so many dividing debates--debates that, in my opinion, simply result in extinguishing the magic that surrounds it. :-\

Don and Gisele, well put.

I think you both make some excellent points.

cat

"I've read so many boards of this same discussion, it's become almost hard to believe." Don

Yes, and this argument - we shouldn't call haiku "haiku" because we don't write it in Japanese - has been thrashed out pretty comprehensively on the old THF discussion boards too, including a very circular argument that posits (something like) it should all be called hokku anyway and because most people don't "understand" the rules of hokku they aren't writing them!

As you Americans are wont to say, enough already.

English is an amazing language that has no morals - absorb what you like/want from other languages, discard the rest and become the language of the world (in business at least this is the case).

Words such as pyjamas and bungalow (from India), mutton and beef (French), coleslaw and apartheid (Dutch), sky and ransack (old Scandinavian) and the very pithy single-syllable swear words from Anglo-Saxon are just a few examples of how adaptable English is.

I suppose we could always pin a tail on it (haiku) and call it a weasel, as Baldrick almost said.

Quote from: Don Baird on December 13, 2010, 01:15:10 PM
History will sort that out and in the end, I truly believe, Chibi, that your position on this will be clearly in the minority.

Anyway, that's my two cents for what it's worth.  It's great seeing you again.  I hope life is treating you well!

all the best,

Don

Hi Don,

Thank you.  Good seeing you again.  I do not mind having a position in the minority, even if it is a fact.  Popular opinions have not always been based on fact. 

Actually, I just propose that we look for a more fitting name for what we write in English/American.  Haiku is already defined and taken for the last 500 years or so.  But, as you say, history does not always favour fact.

Happy Holidays.

:)  I believe it is a fact that we write haiku.  Changing the name to something else will not change that fact.  I don't think language limits our ability to write haiku, sonnets or any other genre.  They might be different but so are people.  Whether a person comes from Canada, Japan, China, USA, Africa etc and regardless of their language, they are indeed called people.  We would never change that even though they are unique in their own way.  Haiku is much like that:  it is unique based on country, language and culture but it is still haiku.

That will never change.  Haiku is indeed haiku in any language.  It might work slightly different and it might reflect one's culture, language etc. a bit, but it is factually haiku.  Regardless, if you are the lessor vote or greater, you're on the opposite side of truth when it comes to haiku, Chibi. 

As a side note, I remember having my haiku win a contest sponsored by your Sensei.  He sent me a book and a private message congratulating me for my fine "haiku".  *He read it on the radio in Japan as well. 

The haiku is:

oh snail ...
you were there
yesterday!

You're still on this subject and it's already been decided.  It's haiku I write:  it's haiku we all write -- including you.  I think it is a very fitting name -- the discussion, today, is a pointless point.  :) 

all my best

Don

*Reference info here:  Shokan Tadashi Kondo Haiku Award - 2009
( a Japanese radio show contest: http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/radio/wi/asx/saturday.asx )

oh snail ...
you were there
yesterday!

Quote from: G.R. LeBlanc on December 13, 2010, 03:12:50 PM
I also agree that Japanese and English-language haiku are different, but changing the term? I mean, haiku isn't ONLY about linguistics, is it? I like to think of haiku as art, and art evolves and changes over time. Yet the essence of haiku remains.

Besides, what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term? How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different? And who would have the authority to do this?

Shouldn't people focus on enjoying haiku, in both writing and reading it, instead of worrying about what it's called? If you ask me, if we start to worry about what things are called and categorizing them, we're totally missing what haiku is about. I always thought that haiku is about looking at the true essence of things, not about their terminology? Isn't it about sharing part of ourselves with others, about showing that we are all connected? 

Yet, here we are trying to define and categorize things so that we can separate them into their own little boxes. I honestly do not understand how such a wonderful form of expression can lead to so many dividing debates--debates that, in my opinion, simply result in extinguishing the magic that surrounds it. :-\

The enjoyment of an art form is certainly very much part of the art, but, there is also nuance in change, much as in painting, Rembrant differs from Picaso, yet it seems to be our innate propensity to anchor our thought change in a name of a thing.  Roses may smell as sweet by any other name, but, I would want to know the difference between a rose and a skunk cabbage less I look foolish picking a corsage, eh?

To support a further ambiquity in relation to the Bard, this may be much ado about nothing, your point.  Please continue your exploration as I will mine.  Thank you for your reply.

Don,

Congrats on your win.  It was a fine short poem.  If you want to discuss further the points of your poem, I would welcome it on another venue.

Shokan sensei is my sensei for renku, his passion.  I have not breached the subject with him as far as what is haiku and what is not, yet, nor do I see it in his plan to do so with me.  We deal with hokku, the first verse of the renku, and, as with all the renku we've written are presented in Japanese with English translations.  On the NHK radio program "World Interactive", I am sending the renku to Shokan sensei for comment if he decides to do so.

I can not judge if you feel this discussion is a waste of your time, it is not mine, although, I appreciate you responding.  I am sorry you feel it is a pointless point, though, I see how you feel it somewhat paradoxical.

Quote from: John Carley on December 10, 2010, 12:07:59 PM
Can blue men sing the whites?

How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?

The premises behind this strand are a creepy reminder of the crypto-xenophobia enshrined in the Matsuyama Declaration.


菊の香や奈良は幾代の男ぶり

chrysanthemum scent --
the untold manner of men
Nara has known

Or as Simpson-san (Bart) put it: wake up and smell the chrysanthemums.

John Carley

Thank you for your reply.

Could you explain a few statements in your reply, at least, for my clarity.

"How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?" 

Can you give your source?  I would love to read it.

"The premises behind this strand are a creepy reminder of the crypto-xenophobia enshrined in the Matsuyama Declaration."  I guess one could fold this into a Japanese prejudice, but, my discussion is about embracing and understanding differences, not, using differences as leverage of class.  So your references is puzzling.

"菊の香や奈良は幾代の男ぶり

chrysanthemum scent --
the untold manner of men
Nara has known"

Could you explain this poem expecially "Nara"? 

As to Bart... yes, he is a sensei to many ;))

Hello,

I did a Google search for "Masaoka Shiki European influence" and got 19,900 hits.

Many included something of this ilk:  "As early as 1892, Masaoka began to feel that Japanese poetry needed to be liberated from ancient rules which dictated the subject matter and vocabulary in order for it to remain a viable form of artistic expression. At that time, the traditional seventeen-syllable verse form was considered incapable of expressing the complexities of modern life. After discovering Western philosophy, Shiki became convinced that laconic descriptions were an effective means of literary expression. In an essay entitled "Jojibun" ("Narration"), which appeared in the newspaper Nihon in 1900, Masaoka introduced the word shasei ("delineation from nature" or "sketching") to describe his methodology of using contemporary language and realistic images."

A book on Shiki by Janine Beichman, in large part available on Google books

http://books.google.com/books?id=yKqMhXgImEoC&dq=isbn:0887273645 

contains a lot of information about the influence of Western painting on Shiki's ideas.

The info is out there.

cat

BAM!  

Thanks for the research, Cat.  That's very interesting. Well, I'm off to write some haiku and enjoy the wonderful evening God has given.  

frosty breath
I can almost hear
the stillness

Many blessings to everyone and goodnight!

Don
:)

Quote from: cat on December 13, 2010, 09:48:24 PM
Hello,

I did a Google search for "Masaoka Shiki European influence" and got 19,900 hits.

Many included something of this ilk:  "As early as 1892, Masaoka began to feel that Japanese poetry needed to be liberated from ancient rules which dictated the subject matter and vocabulary in order for it to remain a viable form of artistic expression. At that time, the traditional seventeen-syllable verse form was considered incapable of expressing the complexities of modern life. After discovering Western philosophy, Shiki became convinced that laconic descriptions were an effective means of literary expression. In an essay entitled "Jojibun" ("Narration"), which appeared in the newspaper Nihon in 1900, Masaoka introduced the word shasei ("delineation from nature" or "sketching") to describe his methodology of using contemporary language and realistic images."

A book on Shiki by Janine Beichman, in large part available on Google books

http://books.google.com/books?id=yKqMhXgImEoC&dq=isbn:0887273645 

contains a lot of information about the influence of Western painting on Shiki's ideas.

The info is out there.

cat

Thanks Cat for doing the research, but, I am a bit perplexed of the misuse of "haiku" in the reference sited.  Bashou wrote absolutely NO haiku.  Maybe there was something hidden in the introduction that made some explanation for this misuse?  Again, it only shows westerners writing about "haiku masters" prior to Shiki are misguided.  

In all fairness, I contend to be no expert, but, it seems logical that the concept of Shiki's "haiku" was not historically retroactive.  I think the confusion may be with hokku (in haikai no renga) and Shiki's "haiku".  

I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

Hello, Chibi,

If you mean Beichman's book, I only looked at t he chapter that dealt with this particular topic (Western influence), so I don't know how she used the word "haiku" or "hokku" or what explanation she gave. 

It would be interesting to find that 1900 essay "Jojibun" and see what it actually says.

And I must say, I find it interesting -- and ironic -- how you use Shiki as a rationale for narrowing what can be considered "haiku" to a very closely defined Japanese entity when everything about him I read last evening made some mention of him wanting to "liberate" Japanese poetry from, as the paragraph I quoted puts it, "ancient rules which dictated the subject matter and vocabulary in order for it to remain a viable form of artistic expression," which seems to be just the opposite of what you're promoting in this thread.

cat

Quote from: cat on December 14, 2010, 05:14:11 AM
Hello, Chibi,

If you mean Beichman's book, I only looked at t he chapter that dealt with this particular topic (Western influence), so I don't know how she used the word "haiku" or "hokku" or what explanation she gave. 

It would be interesting to find that 1900 essay "Jojibun" and see what it actually says.

And I must say, I find it interesting -- and ironic -- how you use Shiki as a rationale for narrowing what can be considered "haiku" to a very closely defined Japanese entity when everything about him I read last evening made some mention of him wanting to "liberate" Japanese poetry from, as the paragraph I quoted puts it, "ancient rules which dictated the subject matter and vocabulary in order for it to remain a viable form of artistic expression," which seems to be just the opposite of what you're promoting in this thread.

cat

Yes, you exploration is correct, but, I feel needs a little more Japanese background history.  Shiki's reaction to liberate was from the renku rule system and the expanding narrowing (oxymoron) of that system which was gaining popularity at the time (my historic accuracy is based upon limited reading, in all fairness); but, Shiki's proposal was a reaction to Japanese enfluences on poetry at the time, although, he was acquiring more information about the west.  In fact, Shiki I believe wanted to re-new some of Bashou's later principles as to poetry.  Let me concede that my exploration is on going.  Please continue your exploration.  I would be honored to share your views as we continue.

I certainly do not want to mislead; and, it seems as though I've done so if you feel "...to "liberate" Japanese poetry from, as the paragraph I quoted puts it, "ancient rules which dictated the subject matter and vocabulary in order for it to remain a viable form of artistic expression," which seems to be just the opposite of what you're promoting in this thread."  I want to adhere to a factual taxonomy and call haiku haiku and ELH, well... something more accurate to what it is and is becoming.  I am not trying to restrict or English efforts, I am trying to put them in proper perspective in relationship to world literature.  That's why I say, "If it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku".

I thank you for continuing dialog and appreciate your openness to others' ideas.  I would feel very sad if I've introduced a negativeness to your exploration of haiku and it's roots.

ok..I'm up for the challenge. Since the essence of haiku is "poetry of the moment", "flash of lightening behind the mountain", or my:

smile
click
memory

here are a few possible names off the top of my head:

burst
spark
lightbeam
flare
wink
bolt
splash
zoom

I like  LIGHTBEAM the best


now, here's the hard part. In oder for wide acceptance, the word has to be embraced by the majority of the haiku community--and used over an extended period of time.

For example: how do you think a "new word" gets published in a forthcoming edition of Websters International? How you ever thought?

Here's how:

At the annual lexicographer's  convention (I believe they convene in NYC) HUNDREDS of new words are presented--and then voted upon as to which will be added to first the "supplemental" edition and then annexed into the final next edition. The critera: the words that are accepted--invaribly ALL have been used by writers who write articles for the major newspapers, (NY Times numero uno)  and popular or critical magazines. I invented the word "mindache" (a headache specifically the result of overthinking, mental confusion from too much thinking, etc) which is up for consideration, but since no author has used it in a major publication, it has little chance for acceptance

So, if you accept lets say LIGHTBEAM, then it must be used by the majority of well-known haiku experts in well publicized articles, newspapers, etc--in order to get in with the new specialized meaning (Lightbeam..an American shortpoem--similar to haiku--usually 3 lines and less than 17 syllables in duration that captures and expresses a singular moment or experience).

So you see..it's  a daunting challenge and it seems like none of the respondants so far to your post are interested.


good luck,

hairy

Quote from: hairy on December 14, 2010, 08:39:48 AM
ok..I'm up for the challenge. Since the essence of haiku is "poetry of the moment", "flash of lightening behind the mountain", or my:

smile
click
memory

here are a few possible names off the top of my head:

burst
spark
lightbeam
flare
wink
bolt
splash
zoom

I like  LIGHTBEAM the best


now, here's the hard part. In oder for wide acceptance, the word has to be embraced by the majority of the haiku community--and used over an extended period of time.

For example: how do you think a "new word" gets published in a forthcoming edition of Websters International? How you ever thought?

Here's how:

At the annual lexicographer's  convention (I believe they convene in NYC) HUNDREDS of new words are presented--and then voted upon as to which will be added to first the "supplemental" edition and then annexed into the final next edition. The critera: the words that are accepted--invaribly ALL have been used by writers who write articles for the major newspapers, (NY Times numero uno)  and popular or critical magazines. I invented the word "mindache" (a headache specifically the result of overthinking, mental confusion from too much thinking, etc) which is up for consideration, but since no author has used it in a major publication, it has little chance for acceptance

So, if you accept lets say LIGHTBEAM, then it must be used by the majority of well-known haiku experts in well publicized articles, newspapers, etc--in order to get in with the new specialized meaning (Lightbeam..an American shortpoem--similar to haiku--usually 3 lines and less than 17 syllables in duration that captures and expresses a singular moment or experience).

So you see..it's  a daunting challenge and it seems like none of the respondants so far to your post are interested.


good luck,

hairy

hairy, welcome to a daunting challenge... first let me ask, do you mean "lightening" or "lightning"?  If "lightening" as a play on words from "enlightening", I feel this a different deepening than to use "lightning".  I like both, but, those that read it would feel you mean, "lightning" and miss some intent.  Perhaps I read too much into it and it is simply a typo?

Shiki faced a daunting challenge, but, he knew the way to attempt the coinage of "haiku" within the Japanese poet community. 

I think if some well known and respected authority, could suggest a change in the nomenclature, if convinced so.  I speculate that if Bill Higginson, would have suggested this change, it would have happend; but, Bill Higginson is no longer with us, regretfully.  I never had the opportunity during his life to suggest it to him, although, we did discuss aspects of English as well as other languages difficulties on what Japanese characteristics could be ported to other cultures and languages.  I discussed this with him in person, although, privately at the HNA convention in Winston-Salem, 2007.  Also, there are discussion currently in Japan as to specify a delineation between Japanese haiku and other countries/language.  (see a previous post on page one)

I know, but disagree, with the dissolving of English words by disuse, as in your reference (my wife is a professional in Library Sciences and we've regreted some of the annual lexicographer's effort).  Yet, English is a living language and as such shrinks and grows within resolved limits.

I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem", although, a bit tongue-in-cheek because "asp" and "esp" both are overloaded in English (one a snake the other a pseudoscience).  If in English we follow the structure used by Shiki but in English context, then it would be a combination similar to ha.i and ku （俳句）or "phrased poetry" (a difficult translation to English at best).  Shiki was reacting to "haikai no renga" or vulgar linked poetry.  So, "phrase poetry" might be a good phrase to represent English language haiku.  Because I like achronimic names, "poam"... (poetry of a momement) hmmmm... that may stick or slide down the wall?

ciao...thanks for your reply

Chibi 575:  oops, I did mean "lightning" --pardon the typo--altho the inadvertant "lightening" does offer possibilities..

I believe "poam" too closely linked with "poem" and some might think it was a typo

"highbeam" just crossed my cranium...it has 2 syllables like haiku,  similar in sound ...and its definition "bright, illumination of a darkened road"..imbues it with some quintessential haiku attributes...


the key now would be to gather maybe 10 or 20  possible words and present them to influential haijin--and hope for the best!

hairy

 

I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc.

Quote from: sandra on December 14, 2010, 01:54:59 PM
I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc.

Sorry, you misunderstood, (mostly my fault); but, I was using American/English as just one example.  Of course, the rule can be applied to any nation (excluding Japan, of course because "haiku" is used in Japan).  I am just exploring, if you have a suggestion for other nations, please I would like to see them.  Yes indeed, the list goes on.  Since I am from the USA, and my native tongue is "English" or should I say "USAian", I was speaking from that perspective.

Quote from: hairy on December 14, 2010, 11:07:55 AM
Chibi 575:  oops, I did mean "lightning" --pardon the typo--altho the inadvertant "lightening" does offer possibilities..

I believe "poam" too closely linked with "poem" and some might think it was a typo

"highbeam" just crossed my cranium...it has 2 syllables like haiku,  similar in sound ...and its definition "bright, illumination of a darkened road"..imbues it with some quintessential haiku attributes...


the key now would be to gather maybe 10 or 20  possible words and present them to influential haijin--and hope for the best!

hairy

 

Yes, I see your point, "poem" and "POAM" are similar on purpose but could simply be discounted as a typo.  I am thinking more about "phrase-poem".  Of couse, as sandra pointed out this may exclude other languages, but, I feel it possible if a similar name could be translated to the appropriate language, like, Spanish, (and I am guessing) "frase poema" (thanks to sandra I am aware of confusion in my previous message to exclude other nations' languages).

Quote from: G.R. LeBlanc on December 13, 2010, 03:12:50 PM
. . .I like to think of haiku as art, and art evolves and changes over time. Yet the essence of haiku remains.

Besides, what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term? How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different? And who would have the authority to do this?

. . .

:-\

Gisele, I agree with you as to your overall view, but in regard to the three questions above (which is all I'm responding to here) we might find some sort of answer historically (in Japan) in Shiki, might we not?

Hi Lorin,

I know that Shiki is the one that coined the term haiku, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Can you elaborate? I can sometimes be a little slow on the uptake.  ;)

Quote

"How is it possible to ignore that much of Shiki's impetus to define the 'haiku' was derived from his espousal of European literary values?"  John Carley

Can you give your source?  I would love to read it. - Dennis

I don't think there is one source, Dennis, but translations of Shiki's own writings on haiku would be the place to begin. Along with Japanese visual artists of the time, Shiki embraced the values of the 'realist' movement in European or Western art and literature of Shiki's time. This is pretty clear in his early 'sketch from life' philosophy, I believe, and you would find it hard to refute it, should you care to do a bit of research reading.

Quote from: chibi575 on December 13, 2010, 10:42:15 PM



I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

Quote from: G.R. LeBlanc on December 14, 2010, 03:57:22 PM
Hi Lorin,

I know that Shiki is the one that coined the term haiku, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? Can you elaborate? I can sometimes be a little slow on the uptake.  ;)

Hi Gisele,
               I wouldn't have thought what I said was too difficult. Your questions, if not taken merely as rhetorical, can be answered by the obvious historical precedent, we could look at them thus:

"...what would anyone possibly have to gain by coining another term?"

What did Shiki have to gain, or what did he consider 'haiku' would gain, by coining the term 'haiku'?

"How does one decide at what point something has evolved or changed enough to call it something different?"

How did Shiki decide and at what point in the Japanese history of the genre or form that something had changed (actually, he thought it had degraded into triviality) enough to call it something different?

"And who would have the authority to do this?"

What authority did Shiki have to change the name?

(I guess there was enough agreement that the genre needed reviving and modernising, that his arguments were strong enough and that he had enough support to have his term, 'haiku' generally accepted)

It would seem to me that Shiki's motives were quite different from the motives of those who would now, after more than a century of promoting haiku in other languages, wish to take back 'haiku' as a term reserved for Japanese haiku only. Shiki's motives were to revive and modernise a flagging genre.
What are the motives of those, Japanese and non-Japanese, who now would like haiku in English and other languages to be known by a different name?

As it is, from what I've been told, the Japanese distinguish Japanese haiku (of any flavour) from non-Japanese haiku in the same way that they distinguish loan words from other languages from words of Japanese origin - by writing them in katakana.

Let's not forget that 'haiku' is modern term, coined by Shiki sometime around the end of the C19 or the beginning of the C20, and also that he was eager to embrace Western culture. Heavens, he even wrote haiku on baseball!
 
- Lorin

Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 04:24:49 PM

Quote from: chibi575 on December 13, 2010, 10:42:15 PM



I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

Hi Lorin,

Could you give some direct references on your assertions about Shiki?  I would enjoy reading the same, to see, if something might have been lost in translation.  I have frankly read/translated little so far.  So, by providing such references perhaps I will agree with you.

I think if Bashou would be able to read Shiki's writings on formulating "haiku", he may be completely opposed, but, then Bashou was in a change phase toward the end of his life, if I understand the history.

At any rate, it is quite a challenge untangling fact from the history's written word (and more than doubly so if translation is involved); and, I can tell from your comments that you are completely against a re-naming, but, that's fine.

In regard to the haiku/hokku distinction: it is real, but it is most useful in scholarly contexts. These remarks from David Landis Barnhill might explain why:

"During most of the twentieth century, Western scholars and translators used the term haiku for both modern haiku and premodern hokku. And haiku has thus generally come to be the generally accepted term in the West for both premodern and modern forms. In addition, Basho's hokku now function in modern culture (both in Japan and the West) the same way Shiki's haiku does, as independent verses."

David Landis Barnhill, Basho's Haiku (Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004), page 4.

In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

. . . unless your goal is to disrupt the status quo, which I assume chibi would like to do here! That's fine. Confusing, a little irritating, but fine.

Quote from: Dave Russo on December 14, 2010, 06:31:44 PM


In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.

Quote from: Dave Russo on December 14, 2010, 06:31:44 PM
In regard to the haiku/hokku distinction: it is real, but it is most useful in scholarly contexts. These remarks from David Landis Barnhill might explain why:

"During most of the twentieth century, Western scholars and translators used the term haiku for both modern haiku and premodern hokku. And haiku has thus generally come to be the generally accepted term in the West for both premodern and modern forms. In addition, Basho's hokku now function in modern culture (both in Japan and the West) the same way Shiki's haiku does, as independent verses."

David Landis Barnhill, Basho's Haiku (Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004), page 4.

In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

. . . unless your goal is to disrupt the status quo, which I assume chibi would like to do here! That's fine. Confusing, a little irritating, but fine.

Dave have we met?

It's a bit unsettling for you giving me a blind-side "compliment" asserting the idea of misnaming/re-naming is "... Confusing, a little irritating, but fine."  

I feel the "status quo" is simply wrong and misguided causing the deeper confusion we have today about "haiku".  If you don't believe it being deeply confusing today, just read what passes for "haiku" today.  I do not apologize for having my beliefs even though they may be judged confusing, irritating, but fine by you.  Although, I do feel your remark a bit condescending.  I will concede that what I say may be disruptive, but, I not only said it here, but, other places to with conviction. (See my first post on page one).

As to siting "... to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. ..." I just don't buy that we've acknowledged it to the degree we need or else we just wouldn't simply moved on the way we have.

Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 05:15:56 PMI wouldn't have thought what I said was too difficult. Your questions, if not taken merely as rhetorical, can be answered by the obvious historical precedent, we could look at them thus:

Hi Lorin,

It may be obvious to anyone who is quite knowledgeable on the subject, but I am definitely not an expert on Shiki so I wasn't sure what you were implying with your questions. I agree that his motives at the time seem quite different from the motives that are spurring the current debate, which is why I still don't see how the historical precedent can answer what we have to gain? The circumstances are so different.  :-\

All I know is that I love haiku, I love writing it, I love reading it, and I love sharing it. And that's enough for me.

Oh, and I did not know that Shiki wrote haiku on baseballs! I really do need to start reading up on him. He sounds like he was a fascinating person.

Anyhow, thanks again for your input. It's appreciated. :)

Gisele

Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: Dave Russo on December 14, 2010, 06:31:44 PM


In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.

Lorin,

I take it as a personal slur to accuse me of being "deliberately mischievous".  Please do not make these discussions personal, I haven't.  I concede any comment and response may be misquided, but, to imply something deliberately mischievous is a demeaning judgement.  Please stop.  Thank you.

Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 06:27:33 PM

Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 04:24:49 PM

Quote from: chibi575 on December 13, 2010, 10:42:15 PM



I'm in the process of getting access to the original Shiki in Japanese.  Then it may take me a long time to see with factual certainty that no haiku existed as such prior to Shiki.

o, dear... Dennis.

Granted, haiku is the term often given retrospectively to Basho's and others' hokku in the wake of Shiki, though there is some evidence that the word 'haiku' was in use in Japan before Shiki, but not to designate what has been termed 'haiku' post-Shiki. . . the single verse which has its origins and counterpart in the hokku of haikai-no-renga, when published separately from the renga.

In a scholarly work, then, perhaps, it would be more technically correct to refer to 'hokku' when writing about pre-Shiki works published in anthologies outside of the context of a complete renga, but the fact that Shiki was successful in changing the name does not change the lineage.

Shiki's name change does seem to cause confusion for some Westerners, though. Maybe this in itself is one reason why more name changing isn't advisable?

Hi Lorin,

Could you give some direct references on your assertions about Shiki?  I would enjoy reading the same, to see, if something might have been lost in translation.  I have frankly read/translated little so far.  So, by providing such references perhaps I will agree with you.

I think if Bashou would be able to read Shiki's writings on formulating "haiku", he may be completely opposed, but, then Bashou was in a change phase toward the end of his life, if I understand the history.

At any rate, it is quite a challenge untangling fact from the history's written word (and more than doubly so if translation is involved); and, I can tell from your comments that you are completely against a re-naming, but, that's fine.

Hi Dennis, I don't have time at present to find all the things I've read, in print and on the net, but they mightn't suit you anyway because everything I've read is in translation. I don't have Japanese. But why put the onus on me to find sources for you, when your interest in this issue would seem to indicate that you'd be aware of them anyway?

In case that's wrong, here is the most general source of all that's available to all, and you could begin to follow up with the references cited at the bottom, should you choose to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku

"
Masaoka Shiki (1867–1902) was a reformer and modernizer. A prolific writer, even though chronically ill during a significant part of his life, Shiki disliked the 'stereotype' haikai writers of the 19th century who were known by the deprecatory term tsukinami, meaning 'monthly', after the monthly or twice-monthly haikai gatherings of the end of the 18th century (in regard to this period of haikai, it came to mean 'trite' and 'hackneyed'). Shiki also criticized Bashō.[citation needed] Like the Japanese intellectual world in general at that time, Shiki was strongly influenced by Western culture. He favored the painterly style of Buson and particularly the European concept of plein-air painting, which he adapted to create a style of haiku as a kind of nature sketch in words, an approach called shasei, literally 'sketching from life'. He popularized his views by verse columns and essays in newspapers.

Hokku up to the time of Shiki, even when appearing independently, were written in the context of renku.[21] Shiki formally separated his new style of verse from the context of collaborative poetry. Being agnostic,[27] he also separated it from the influence of Buddhism. Further, he discarded the term "hokku" and proposed the term haiku as an abbreviation of the phrase "haikai no ku" meaning a verse of haikai,[28] although the term predates Shiki by some two centuries, when it was used to mean any verse of haikai.[29] Since then, "haiku" has been the term usually applied in both Japanese and English to all independent haiku, irrespective of their date of composition. Shiki's revisionism dealt a severe blow to renku and surviving haikai schools. The term "hokku" is now used chiefly in its original sense of the opening verse of a renku, and rarely to distinguish haiku written before Shiki's time.[30]."

(italics mine)

re your point that I am 'against name-changing', yes, I suppose I am, mainly because I don't see any point in it in the case of haiku.

You said earlier that the name Bombay has been changed back to Mumbai, yes, true, but the name Bombay wasn't Indian in the first place. Now we are all happy to use 'Mumbai'.  I'm not holding my breath till New York, Washington or Melbourne return to their original names in the languages of the people who originally occupied those territories, though. In the case of Uluru, when there was a return to the original name in the 80s here, the tourism industry succeeded in having the English name kept as a co-name because certain countries, on which a fair percentage of Australian tourism relies, didn't like the original name 'Uluru'.

I live in a country where, since the 1950s, it has been considered very rude and ignorant to call immigrants or tourists from other countries and ethnic groups 'foreigners'. Yet I am aware that, all these decades later, it is not considered rude in Japan to call non-Japanese people 'gaijin'. If a case could be made that the adoption of haiku into English and other languages was a cultural appropriation made without the assent of the Japanese, I might think differently about renaming, but I doubt that such a case can be made in the case of poetry. I do question the motives of those who want the term haiku reserved for Japanese haiku, especially those of non-Japanese origin.

- Lorin

Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 07:35:59 PM

Quote from: Lorin on December 14, 2010, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: Dave Russo on December 14, 2010, 06:31:44 PM


In the books of translated haiku that I've read by Barnhill, Ueda, and others, the typical approach is to acknowledge the haiku/hokku distinction, then move on. To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . .

Yup, Dave, I can confirm that this is the typical contemporary approach and wholeheartedly agree with it for the reasons you give. Any other approach now is either misguided or deliberately mischievous.

Lorin,

I take it as a personal slur to accuse me of being "deliberately mischievous".  Please do not make these discussions personal, I haven't.  I concede any comment and response may be misquided, but, to imply something deliberately mischievous is a demeaning judgement.  Please stop.  Thank you.

Sorry, Dennis, my intention was not to offend you or even to imply that you, personally, are being deliberately mischievous. I don't know you and have had no contact with you. I have had contact, though, with other non-Japanese who promote this cause and in my opinion there is mischief involved.

Where does the cause originate and what are the motives behind it, do you know? I don't, and would be pleased if you would spell them out.

re your comment on 'what passes for haiku' that I've just read, I recommend Jim Kacian's sensible musings in his essay, 'The Haiku Heirarchy' (published in 'White Lies'[ Red Moon Anthology)

- Lorin

Lorin,

Thank you. 

As to sources, thank you for your effort, but, I am exploring this myself, too.  I continue to explore.

Actually, all my leanings towards finding a name of the poetry written in English, specifically but not exclusively, the USA was in hopes of clearing what I consider misguided and misunderstood concepts in the transporting of Japanese haiku outside of Japan.  I think we (non-Japanese) should take ownership of the form(s) we have created (in the effort of that transportation).

I feel the "status quo" is simply wrong and misguided causing the deeper confusion we have today about "haiku".  If you don't believe it being deeply confusing today, just read what passes for "haiku" today: Chibi

I'd like to reply to this and had already planned to do so when I saw Chibi feeling that he had been patronised.

Now, I'm feeling patronised. Maybe.

Could you clarify what you mean by "what passes for 'haiku' today". I am writing haiku today and feel that remark is somewhat insulting. It may just be the quotation marks round haiku, but I'd still like to hear.

Any literary form has its pioneers and innovators and whether what they're doing has merit is down to the individual reader/editor. Do you want haiku contained in amber?

And, if you're so concerned about what is being written in English, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on gendai haiku being written in Japanese (and which I read in translation only).


I really don't feel like I've grasped the essence, or even importance, of your position, sorry.

We write what we write. (You didn't appear to want to call it a weasel though?)

QuoteQuote from Chibi: Dave, have we met?

Yes, Dennis, we met at Haiku North America 2007, in Winston-Salem. For that reason, and because you have gone out of your way to be polite to people on this board, I'm sorry if I offended you.

QuoteQuote from Chibi: It's a bit unsettling for you giving me a blind-side "compliment" asserting the idea of misnaming/re-naming is "... Confusing, a little irritating, but fine."

Here's a more complete version of what I said:

Quote
Quote from Dave: To make a big deal of this distinction now is contrary to standard usage and is therefore more confusing than accepting the status quo . . . unless your goal is to disrupt the status quo, which I assume chibi would like to do here! That's fine. Confusing, a little irritating, but fine.

I assume you started this thread to "disrupt" or challenge the status quo. That's right, isn't it?

As for the "irritating" remark . . . you've got me there. I confess that I am irritated by your assertion that haiku in languages other than Japanese should not be called haiku, or the suggestion that that a new name for such poems would make things clearer. I've seen the "haiku/hokku" hobby horse trotted out too many times, I'm afraid.

Let's just say that I agree with most haiku poets, scholars, and translators that I've read: the use of "haiku" for haiku-like poems in whatever language is less confusing than the alternatives.

QuoteI feel the "status quo" is simply wrong and misguided causing the deeper confusion we have today about "haiku".

I feel that your cure is worse than the disease. What you are calling confusion I would call creative ferment.

Quote
I will concede that what I say may be disruptive, but, I not only said it here, but, other places to with conviction.

Please see my remarks above.

It is good to state your views with conviction. I think that is what we are all trying to do.

Quote from: chibi575 on December 14, 2010, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: sandra on December 14, 2010, 01:54:59 PM
I've toyed with the word coinage of ASP "American Short Poem" and ESP, "English Short Poem" : chibi

Oh dear, oh dear.

Thanks so much, chibi, for dispensing with all those speakers of English who don't happen to be American or English ....

Where shall I start? How about Canadians? Or Scots, Irish, Welsh? Or Australians, New Zealanders, Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, Cook Islanders? Or South Africans, Kenyans, Nigerians, Batswana, Gambians? Or Jamaicans, Barbadians, Belizians? Or Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans? And the list goes on.

If I may be so forward as to speak on behalf of the people and nationalities you've disenfranchised, I wonder how serious you really are. It seems that you've taken a provocative stance but haven't done much thinking to back it up, if the best you can come up with is "American" or "English" short poems.

Humph, etc. (Sandra)

Sorry, you misunderstood, (mostly my fault); but, I was using American/English as just one example.  Of course, the rule can be applied to any nation (excluding Japan, of course because "haiku" is used in Japan).  I am just exploring, if you have a suggestion for other nations, please I would like to see them.  Yes indeed, the list goes on.  Since I am from the USA, and my native tongue is "English" or should I say "USAian", I was speaking from that perspective. (Chibi)

The term 'haiku' is now a loan word in many languages as well as in English. Dennis, am I right in thinking that in your suggestion for a name change for English-language haiku, as enlarged upon in your reply to Sandra, above, you have only American haiku in mind? Only haiku written by Americans, as Sandra observes? And the rest of the world can keep calling their haiku, haiku?

If so, I find such an insular and isolationist view highly questionable and doubt that it would gain popularity with thinking Americans, let alone English speakers outside of America and those whose languages are other than English.

But now understanding that you are addressing your fellow Americans only, I'll comment no further on this thread.

-Lorin

Dave, thank you for your apology and your position has become clear.  I did not fully realize your frustration and irritation with my frustration, although, I'm not irritated to have oposing opnion if it is not accompanyed by personal jibs (you cleared that it was not personal, and I thank you for that).  I hope we can agree to disagree.  I am aware of your envolvement in the HNA and you have passion for the art.  My contentions about the status quo are for no particular individual.  From the time that haiku was transported to the USA it was fraught with misconception, I feel.  Of course, it is a complicated issue.  I feel it needs retroactive correction.  Such efforts can frustrate and irritate, I grant; and, this is no different throughout history.  Let me say this as I've said consistently in the past, "I love haiku".  That passion I hope to learn to always express with compassion.  I am truly sorry for the irritation that my possition has caused you.  Mostly, I feel I am misunderstood in my positioin.  I would have thought taking more ownership of what we write in the way of a different name of the form would finally point us in the right direction.

To all:

I have tried to present a possible way to do a in course correction on the effort to widden the world wide transportation of a Japanese art form, haiku.  I have suggested (with genuine sincerety) that as we transport we take direct ownership of the resulting art by naming that art form in relation to the adopting culture/language/nation.  This has understandably caused frustration and personal irritation as expressed in the comment replies.  I apologize for causing that; but, I do not shrink from my conviction that ownership is needed for the transported art form.  If The Haiku Foundation membership would like to have discussion on this thread, I welcome it.  What I will not tollerate is bullying in any form.  Please keep your comments focused on the theme of "taking ownership".  I have cast a challenge by the statement, "If it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku."  Perhaps this is too frank (or even rude) of a statement.  My reasoning behind such a statement was to move the membership to discussion, not, open this forum to personal attacks (for anyone of any nationality).

Thank you for your kindnesses.

, I can appreciate both sides here. We are a part of nature and I love the zen aspect and tradition within haiku; it's in our nature as a part of nature to evolve, have a sense of humour and to be innovative - yet somehow haiku seems to have become overly serious and if humour and true innovation breaks through even in innovative haiku we feel like we are breaking the rules, disturbing something sacred. It would be a shame to divide rather than accommodate, co-operation should be possible, instead we have different factions ( like religion ) each convinced they are right, we should remember we are all a part of the same inter-related whole diverse fullness of creation, without elasticity under pressure things have a habit of falling apart. In Japan they invite contributions from other languages, first try I got an hon mention for an entry to the mainichi haiku contest, we appreciate the gift of haiku from them and it seems they appreciate our take on it. Perhaps what we need is more flexibility and to embrace all that haiku is as it evolves.

Hello, Dennis,

Going to call you that instead of your username from now on, if you don't mind.

(I'm trying to quote you here, but can't figure out how to do it, so --)

You say, "I have suggested (with genuine sincerety) that as we transport we take direct ownership of the resulting art by naming that art form in relation to the adopting culture/language/nation."

Am I reading this right?  Are you saying that Brits, Scots, Aussies, Canadians, Indians, Ghanans Poles, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, the Irish, et al. should each decide on a name for what we now call "haiku" and use that name within their respective countries?  That there be no world-wide, commonly understood, term for the (form, genre, whatever) in which we write?

IMHO, that will be a real tower-of-Babel moment.  What happens to the international haiku community then?  What happens to the bilingual journals such as Chrysanthemum?

Gael, I so agree.

Lorin, my friend, I hope you're still reading this thread, which does not seem to be US-centric any more, because I want you to know that I find your scholarship and common sense very welcome in this and every other discussion.

cat

Cat, I really prefer "chibi" for that is actually my haigou, if that's ok.  But, if you're more comfortable with Dennis, then please by all means be comfortable.  I will take no offense either way.

As to the plethera of names if taken the method I've suggested, it is perhaps as you say, "a tower of Babel".  Yet, it is no more than the present names given all the different genre of literary art.  As I gave example of "phrase poetry" for English, perhaps, the approach could be refined.  I am taking my lead, actually, from the Japanese, which in admiring Chinese literature adapted their own variation and name for their forms of poetry based upon similar Chinese genres.  Did this become overwhelming to the Japanese?  Not really as is proof today of the various Japanese names adapted from Chinese verse, hokku, tanka, renku... are a few examples.  If they used the Chinese literature directly, the Chinese name was used, after all most of the Japanese kanji is based upon Chinese pictogram symbology retaining the orginal Chinese meaning.  Maybe kanji could be used as an example because the Chinese do not say "kanji" as the name of their symbology.  The Japanese were keen to point out their "ownership" of the use by the name.

There are difficulties in any change.  I am willing to concede my idea of naming may not be the best, thus, in part the reason for introducing the subject, "Concerning English Short Poetry", although, I should have originally named it, "Concerning Short Poetry" for in fact I did not mean it exclusive to English, but, because I am a native English speaker, I thought to emphasize I can not speak for other nationalities but best from my USA perspective.

Thank you for your reply.  Your point about "the tower of Babel" is definately a valid consideration and begs a solution.

Cultural exchange has been the norm.  From baseball to haiku, countries around the globe have been exchanging aspects of their being.  Japan has enjoyed baseball for over a hundred years.  "Nippon Professional Baseball started in 1920. It is called Puro Yakyū (プロ野球), which simply is a translation of professional baseball." wikipedia (and other sources).  Earlier forms (non-pro) of baseball in Japan began in the late 1800s.  They call it baseball today.

The sonnet was developed in Italy around the 1200s, or so.  Sonnets appeared in England during the 1500s (give or take).  But, what we do know is:

"Traditionally, English poets employ iambic pentameter when writing sonnets, but not all English sonnets have the same metrical structure: the first sonnet in Sir Philip Sidney's sequence Astrophel and Stella, for example, has 12 syllables: it is iambic hexameters, albeit with a turned first foot in several lines. In the Romance languages, the hendecasyllable and Alexandrine are the most widely used metres." wikipedia

Tennis, archery, music (sonata, concerto) have been shared by countries and cultures for centuries.  I don't ever remember an argument or discussion regarding, one country or another, must change the name because what they are doing isn't authentic or "a sonata isn't a sonata if written by an Englishman".  We must be careful here. 

I'm happy for Japan having baseball and call it what they want – hopefully "baseball".  I'm happy that Mozart wrote sonatas;  and followed by, Beethoven, Brahms, Poulenc, Copeland, Leonard Bernstein and a very popular Japanese composer Michio Mamiya (who writes "sonatas") and thousands of other composers from nearly every country on the planet.

Dennis, I congratulate you on your consistency of message regarding this topic. But I beg to disagree wholeheartly with its content.  Your opinion is that we do not write haiku.  Mine is that we do.  I'm more than comfortable with that.

I encourage everyone to keep on writing.  Unite together and make haiku strong without regard to language or cultural differences.  Bring haiku to the limelight and let it soar with the concertos, sonatas. sonnets, kyries and on and on.  Haiku is the most amazing gem and lets continue to cherish it and care for it in a way that we meet the standards well known in the Japanese culture.  We, all of the we, without regard to nationality are now the co-caretakers of this wonderul art form. 

This thread enthuses me to write more – to write more haiku, tanka, haibun, and haiga. And, to write it well!   

all the best to everyone,

Don

When exactly does any poem become English poetry?  Perhaps it doesn't.  Take "The Inferno," for example.  If I could learn to write poetry in English like Dante's work, would that be English poetry?  Probably not short though.  Just asking. ;)

Here is a good example from another page in the Foundation Blog.  Is it poetry?  Is it English poetry?  Or is it Spanish poetry in English?
Or is it English poetry trying to imitate Spanish poetry?  Is it worth arguing about?

Quote from: David Lanoue on December 06, 2010, 11:29:31 AM
When my students ask me "What's the difference between prose and poetry?" I suppose it's a cop-out, but I tell them, "Look at how it's arranged on the page." If the words are broken into packages and not running from margin to margin, it's a poem, I say. (I avoid the topic of "prose-poems"!) My students usually don't question this answer, but they could easily challenge this definition by visually turning any random bit of prose into "poetry":

In a village of La Mancha,
the name of which
I have no desire
to call to mind,
there lived not long since
one of those gentlemen
that keep a lance
in the lance-rack,
an old buckler,
a lean hack,
and a greyhound for coursing.

Have I justy now made Cervantes' opening for Don Quixote into a poem? Maybe! When you read it, do you find yourself lingering on the words and perhaps savoring their music a bit more than you might when you see them printed on the page as prose? I do! I think that the reader's poetic frame of mind is essential to perceiving words as poetry. I always bring that frame of mind to my reading of haiku.
[/quote

Well... this is a fine fettle of kish!

Don... "write on!"  By the way, "baseball" I believe had a different name, orginally French...  oh well, I guess there was no one worried when it changed over time to "basball".  Actually, supports my arguement, sort of.  If I can use that as example, it took hundreds of years for that to happen and the game evolved into "baseball".  If haiku were treated as baseball, then, what would happen to the transported game if you decided to paly a game without bases (kigo), without bats (kireji), without balls (there is a pun there somewhere).  Would you not be a bit embarrased and confused to call it "baseball".


Let me outline some elements of Japanese haiku that I feel failed to be transported with the same importance held in Japan:

kigo (a major debate at times across the adapting cultures of the world) for this alone I could argue that this only applies to haiku (traditional Japanese hokku-to-haiku element).  This alone could be key to adopting a different name for the resulting poetry genre.

kakekotoba (word play or puns) which are usually the mark of mastership poetry in Japan and dates back to the root Chinese poetry.  Western puns are usually judged poor form in English literature, mostly, as near as I can assess, because they are at a sound level, whereby in Japan the best are situational and reference traditional and revered poets of the past.

kireji (precisely constructed pauses or "cut aways" usually delineated by an actual phrase or word in Japanese designed especially for this use.  Other languages do not have specific symbology for such.

Because of these specific art constructions that originate and are retained in Japanese haiku, makes me feel, it is a different genre (so far) when transported to non-Japanese cultures.

If we go back again to "baseball" the differences in the French game and todays game are variance enough to warrent a different name for the French game.  I think this exists between Japanese haiku and the resulting poems transfered to other cultures and yes, it is daunting to consider the name changes per adaptation per culture (embrasing diversity and not isolation).

What I am hearing from most of those that have replied to this forum, there is a concern of the effort and risk of confusion by proposing a plethera of genre (ones to embrace the world wide cultural diversity).  I feel such effort worth the gain in promoting a clearer understanding that a poem of three lines with some letter-phrase phoneticaly complete sound count of groupings of 5-7-5 may not qualify as haiku.  By qualifying the diversity of culture and resulting qualified components associated with their resulting own genre, could have a freeing effect.  The question of the Japanese haiku components of their poetry could be part of the adaptations.  In other words, kigo, kakekotoba, and kireji could be used or not as defined by the resulting rules of the genre.

Thanks all for your interest and replies.

PS... I am begining to feel like I'm in a possible skit by SNL's Rosanne Roseannadanna, "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku! .... nevermind."

Hello, chibi,

Interesting that baseball has finally come into this.  I have been thinking about that analogy, only differently, for a couple of days now.

What I've been thinking about is the designated hitter.  Would you say that AL games (English-language haiku) are very different from NL games (Japanese haiku)?  Do you think the DH makes the AL somehow not baseball any more?  Should Major League Baseball be dissolved and the two leagues go their separate ways as two different games? 

Here's something the Saturday Evening Post published back in January of this year that I think has some relevance here:

"You don't have to be a rabid baseball fan to see an intriguing question beneath the controversy. The Designated Hitter Rule is a fundamental controversy that can be found in art, govermment, philosophy, and religion: is it better to change the rules to achieve desired results, or should we improve our performance within the existing rules? This question in this controversy is similar to that which launched the Reformation and split the artistic community over Modernism."

Well, it's all grist for the mill . . .

I don't believe I'll be calling what I write anything but "English-language haiku" in the foreseeable future.

cat

LOL... Dennis...

Out of curiosity, what headway have you made with anyone at any forum with this concept of yours.  I've seen this argument a thousand times (usually you bringing it up, :) )  in different forums.  Do you have a following with the concept?  Is there a website folks can go to in order to hear your expertise and see your complete argument?   And, is there a following for you regarding the change of name for hokku?  Are you doing well with that side of your argument also.

I appreciate your indepth opinions.  They're interesting, minimally. 

all my best

Don

Cat... your grist is welcome.

Don... could you explain "minimally" in your last remark?  It sounds a wee bit condescendingly sarcastic, then, this may be my interpretation of your style?  Perhaps this is an expression of your frustration with the new genre concept?  I've decided to not take it personally, though.  Sorry for your frustration.  Thank you for your replies.

As to some of the reference to my prior thinking on the "new genre" concept (if this was a serious inquiry and not a snip based on frustration), I've been supporting beginning in the late 90's that much of what is written as haiku (other than in Japan), usually lacks a key understanding of the three elements I outlined in the previous post, kigo, kakekotoba, and kireji (explicitly or implied).  The pivotal component most misunderstood is kigo, but, the others have almost equal weight.  When transported to the English speaking world by Blythe, there was by it's newness (I believe), a flawed understanding as to these components and others.  Blythe did a stellar job (for his time) and is a good historical reference.  But, as more eyes began to look and understand the Japanese art form, more and more key nuances were discovered and the need for their transport (with their idea intact) began to show a strong collection of cultural based bias and barriers.  Some good reference books on these are by author Robin D. Gill (almost all his works have copious footnote and bibliography that explain in depth the Japanese "heart-mind").  Bill Higginson's books, too, are very good at explaining these ideas (Bill's presentation is very easy to understand).  My most enfluential book (for me personally) is "Chiyo-ni, Woman Haiku Master", authors Patricia Donegan and Yosie Ishibashi. 

My first sensei, Fujita Akegarasu, a haijin and leader of the Tokyo haiku circle, Kusanohana, instilled in me the Japanese haiku spirit.  He was gracious and a bit radical by Japanese haiku circle standards to accept me as a student.  He was my teacher for about 3 years until his passing in 2004.  He was very interested in any outside interest in haiku (he did not teach any other form, although I asked him about haibun, renku, and tanka).  Other than accepting me as student, he is teaching was standard for Japanese haiku circles, although, he was charismatic and could pull from you more than you felt you had.  I hold a deep fondness and respect for him.  Towards his death, he asked me to take his teachings back with me to the USA.  I had opened a free BLOG in Yahoo 360 (now defunct) to teach the limited lessons I had learned from Akegarasu sensei.  I met many through the blog that were interested in my experiences and interest in haiku.  There were a core of about 12 "students (haiku no deshi)" from many cultures that I still try to stay in contact with even today. 

I was also very lucky to have won the 8th Mainichi Frist Place Award in the International Haiku Contest, 2004.  I envited Akegarasu sensei to the awards ceremony to honor him as my teacher.  Here is an article in Atlanta Magazine that fills in more details:

http://books.google.com/books?id=sQ8AAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=8th+Mainichi+Haiku&source=bl&ots=FOtJStfhzA&sig=U5Q_zit_5Nl9Pp3Xy4dRgYlI8ko&hl=en&ei=nyUKTfuOI4GKlwez28miAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

I also supported Gabi Greve's ideas and concepts of the World Kigo Database, to give access to a collection (today still a work in progress) of world wide seasonal word references.  Gabi sama and I discussed at length the concepts within the Japanese haiku and there transportation to other languages and cultures.   We still feel frustrated about their lack of sound transport, although, her tireless energy has done more than I could begin to do to foment the kigo concept.

Today, I support the idea of new genre to actually free the short poem poetics from the Japanese haiku components that they have labored with through prior misunderstandings.  I feel that this freedom is afforded by a new genre that each country can take ownership of.

Thank you for your kindnesses.

I think the clue to your frustration lies in this statement

QuoteLet me outline some elements of Japanese haiku that I feel failed to be transported with the same importance held in Japan:

While I agree a lot fail in this respect it doesn't mean its not possible, perhaps it would be more fruitful to promote the use of what you describe ?
Actually this is a useful checklist to look at before sending english haiku to japan or china, thankyou.
Could we design an english equivalent to their pauses?

Hey Dennis,

No, not at all.  The first part of my inquiry was in jest (we have been in this one, together, before :) ).  The "minimally" is simply what it means.  Very sorry for the confusion. It sounds like you might be fatiguing on this and becoming sensitive.  I didn't mean to put that much pressure on you.  I love your passion, Chibi, and desire to honestly preserve the dignity of the haiku art form.  So, don't take me wrongly.  And, I'll be more careful as to how I word my posts.  Thanks.

On a side note, I do notice though, you didn't address my questions at all.  If you have a moment, would you please inform me as to your success with this concept over the last 5 - 10 years.  I'm sincerely interested in knowing the inquiries of my prior post.

take care,

Don
ps... yes, I'm familiar with the well known poets of the past who have actually stated your side of the discussion themselves.  This thought (your position) has been outlined very clearly by some of the folks you've mentioned.  Gabi is a friend of mine (internet, I've never met her) and support and love her work.  If you notice, I almost always write with kigo, kireji, ma ...... and the rest).  The operative words here are "almost always"...  8)  Gabi's comment about me is:  "... you are one of the few who understands the Japanese ways ..." (Dr. Greve).  She is most probably aligned with you on this subject, by the way.

Quote from: Don Baird on December 15, 2010, 11:17:56 PM
LOL... Dennis...

Out of curiosity, what headway have you made with anyone at any forum with this concept of yours.  I've seen this argument a thousand times (usually you bringing it up, :) )  in different forums.  Do you have a following with the concept?  Is there a website folks can go to in order to hear your expertise and see your complete argument?   And, is there a following for you regarding the change of name for hokku?  Are you doing well with that side of your argument also.

I appreciate your indepth opinions.  They're interesting, minimally.  

all my best


Don

Don, the idea of a new genre?  Thousands of posts?  Actually, I've rarely and only just recently realized this a possible direction.  So, it may be some one else!  So far, as I can testify only a few know this proposal and I feel it a small sample.  It is difficult to convince readers of my good intentions. 

mockingbird
out on a limb --
songless air

Pretty much sums it up... as I was walking towards the beach where I observed the wind swept seafoam shivered, a mockingbird wintering on the island seemed seasonally silent in our current cold snap.  This is an example of a "phrase-poem" because there is no kigo for mockingbird in the Japanese saijiki, there is a forced "cut" by has been tried to be equivalent in English symbology, " -- ". and probably you would have to explain the expression, "songless air" because in Japanese this is difficult to translate or find equivalent fitting Japanese.  To resolve the kigo issue is to use the current approach to make mockingbird a regional kigo for the southern USA.  In Japan, the bird would not occur, but, is quite common in the southern USA.  Although, "out on a limb" is an idiom for being in a place with precarious support, the literal equivalent does not occur in Japan not even in an equivalent cliche.

I am an engineer by vocation, and, form-fit-function of a part, component, or sub-system meeting qualified constraints and requirements is accepted as an equivalent.  This thinking has a great enfluence on "if it ain't Japanese, it ain't haiku" because I contend the form-fit-function contraints have not been met (or could possibly be met) by transported "haiku".  An example of this is evidenced by my poem, for example. Another way to put this is the cliche... "fitting a round peg in a square hole".

I know most of the poets probably do not understand these engineering concepts to the degree an engineer would.  Even so, I feel I can't share my frustration with them at the same level, and, maybe I shouldn't try.  I wish I did not feel so compelled, but I do.

Eventually, in this life or the next, I feel, the new genre idea will eventually be embraced.

I will take non-reply as an answer of non-support, but, if you do decide to reply, please, either ask for clarification of and/or offer contributions to the proposal, not, whether the proposal is right or wrong in your judgement, nor popular or unpopular.  I will not return any reply other than those focused on construction of the proposal.  Popularity issues sway me so little enough to warrant non-reply.  I welcome openly any replies meeting the above criteria.  In other words, it is your right to not like what I've proposed, but, I will not reply to assesments unless they are on the proposals components.

For example, you may ask the importance of kigo, or why are these components important in Japanese haiku.  But not, liking or not liking the idea of kigo.  I hope this will help the comments focus on issues I will reply to.

Thank you.  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

PS... it is fine for me to get no replies... I will simply take that as non-support and move on.

  "the idea of a new genre?  Thousands of posts?  Actually, I've rarely and only just recently realized this a possible direction.  So, it may be some one else!  So far, as I can testify only a few know this proposal and I feel it a small sample.  It is difficult to convince readers of my good intentions." chibi..........

Dennis, you and I talked about this with other folks on HH quite a bit.  This was a huge subject there.  Later you and I talked on skype.  You suggested I enter the radio contest.  I appreciate that to this day!  Our discussions in those days were interesting, kind of fiery.  I haven't posted there for two years.  So, this is something you and I've been passionate about and have brought up in other venues.  My comment "1000 times" is a figure of speech.  We've chatted over the phone so you know a bit how I speak.  Unfortunately, voice and presence do not carry very well in these forums.  :(  I speak in jest very often.
*******************
But, seriously, do you have a following in this theory?  I think that's a very fair question.  I'm honestly interested.  Please let me know. 

It might be that you should set up a website and try to reach out to education institutions etc. and make some differences, if it's possible, in the understanding of haiku in English.  I'm not certain you can get the name changed, but I am certain, with your expertise and education, that you can bring the USAs education system up to speed.  It would take some time, but, it probably can be done.  That would be a great venue for you.

In this case, you are suggesting to folks who write haiku to change the name of what they've done for years.  I think it is already too late, in general, to propose that.  However, if you can get into the educational system, you can make a difference before the poet has become with such a firm opinion of the name etc.  I'm just thinking out loud here, is all.

I respect your position regarding this board.  So, I will not offer further challenges to your cause of changing the name.  Reading your original thesis and the title of this board, I honestly thought you wanted the idea meaningfully argued.  My misunderstanding.

Take care always,

Don

ps... please edit the post you quoted me in.  Your words are tagged onto the end after my signature Don.  The post is respectful ... I apologize if it comes off otherwise.  I exaggerate to make a point sometimes.  I'd be more than happy to edit it if you like.  It's your call.

Hello, chibi,

Similar to Don, I thought this was a thread for discussing the merits of changing the name of English-language haiku or leaving it alone.  Oh well.  My mistake.

If you succeed with the name change, I am sure we will all hear about it.

Until then, over and out,
cat

Thank you all for understanding.  Happy Holidays and a Joyous New Year.

Don... I can't seem to figure out how to edit quotes.  I noticed what you observed and I don't know how it happened or how to correct it.  I will try some things.

Quote from: cat on December 16, 2010, 04:28:32 PM
Hello, chibi,

Similar to Don, I thought this was a thread for discussing the merits of changing the name of English-language haiku or leaving it alone.  Oh well.  My mistake.

If you succeed with the name change, I am sure we will all hear about it.

Until then, over and out,
cat

Thanks Cat, I felt that we stopped talking about the new genre and started more questioning just about anything I replied as to its worth.  Site: popularity of idea... what's with that?  I was hoping for more discussion about perhaps why haiku is haiku, the Shiki connection, and how he came up with support for his proposal of haiku from the roots of hokku.  There seemed to be few comments about actually naming the new genre.  Of course, I figured the forum was getting more personal about my ideas and motivations.  So, I tried to refocus the direction, and I hope that will work. 

I was hoping for some ideas on the support the genre idea, but, certainly and only if a member replying supported the idea. 

I have appreciated your replies and I fully understand if you no longer contribute as I am fairly sure you do not support the genre change (and that's fine really).

Thanks! I see the change.  :)

Your original premise for this subject/thread:  "In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku."

With a strong stance such as this, of course people are going to "get into it" here.  That's such a powerful opinion it could hurt some folks feelings, especially, if they are new to writing haiku.  I empathize with them and feel badly that they come here to learn haiku and instead, they are told by a very well respected haijin that their newly learned art isn't haiku.

Also, it seems particularly poignant in that this site is called "The Haiku Foundation"........  

Would you consider opening a new thread to avoid confusion and delete or lock this one?  It would help avoid confusion as to what the subject is here.  Currently, if someone new comes in, they are going to read your opening statements and then start up with this old argument -- then we'll all end up in it again.  :(  

The new thread could be called:  Japanese Nuances in Writing Haiku?  Or something like that.  Then, we could all study together and share how each of us perceives the role of such things as kigo, kireji, ma and etc.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on these things and I think you do have a lot to share.  And, there are many haijin here that have extensive experience to share. I think that would be a dynamite discussion.

What do you think?  I'm in for a thread like that.

all the best,

Don
ps:  as far as websites, this is what I mean you could do but different subject of course:  

http://www.kungfukarate.com
http://www.clarinetpro.com
http://www.donbairdphotography.com

You could develop a site to specifically announce your beliefs regarding non Japanese haiku and what it should be called.  Then, you could contact jr highs, high schools, and colleges to look it over and try to influence it through the proper channels.  Personally, I want to keep it haiku and at 63, I'm probably going too.  LOLL  But, for you ... maybe you have a passion to see this through.  Take care ... just thinking out loud.  Nothing here is intended to be sarcastic.  I apologize in advance if I've worded anything that is ambiguous in that regard.  Don

Don, I've made the changes and it was easier than I intially thought.

Now, just to be clear, our discussion on HH was never about a new genre name.  It was about the qualifying components of a haiku and if you did not have certain key components how could it be by definition a haiku.

The genre name is a proposal for solution allowing more freedom in the short poem by taking direct ownership and defining what's allowed in the resulting genre.  This particular proposal is recent from me.  I think less than a couple of months old.

Anyway, Don, thank you for your interest, but, now that I know you do not support the genre idea, it is perfectly fine to stop replying as to the idea's popularity or merit.  I know where you stand and it's fine, really.

Quote from: Don Baird on December 16, 2010, 07:17:30 PM
Thanks! I see the change.  :)

Your original premise for this subject/thread:  "In other words, if it is not written originally in Japanese it is not haiku."

With a strong stance such as this, of course people are going to "get into it" here.  That's such a powerful opinion it could hurt some folks feelings, especially, if they are new to writing haiku.  I empathize with them and feel badly that they come here to learn haiku and instead, they are told by a very well respected haijin that their newly learned art isn't haiku.

Also, it seems particularly poignant in that this site is called "The Haiku Foundation"........  

Would you consider opening a new thread to avoid confusion and delete or lock this one?  It would help avoid confusion as to what the subject is here.  Currently, if someone new comes in, they are going to read your opening statements and then start up with this old argument -- then we'll all end up in it again.  :(  

The new thread could be called:  Japanese Nuances in Writing Haiku?  Or something like that.  Then, we could all study together and share how each of us perceives the role of such things as kigo, kireji, ma and etc.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on these things and I think you do have a lot to share.  And, there are many haijin here that have extensive experience to share. I think that would be a dynamite discussion.

What do you think?  I'm in for a thread like that.

all the best,

Don
ps:  as far as websites, this is what I mean you could do but different subject of course:  

http://www.kungfukarate.com
http://www.clarinetpro.com
http://www.donbairdphotography.com

You could develop a site to specifically announce your beliefs regarding non Japanese haiku and what it should be called.  Then, you could contact jr highs, high schools, and colleges to look it over and try to influence it through the proper channels.  Personally, I want to keep it haiku and at 63, I'm probably going too.  LOLL  But, for you ... maybe you have a passion to see this through.  Take care ... just thinking out loud.  Nothing here is intended to be sarcastic.  I apologize in advance if I've worded anything that is ambiguous in that regard.  Don

Don, you've made some valid points and I would support you opening a subject in discussing the points you outlined.  Also, this forum header is called "In-Depth Discussions" and would imply a certain pre-knowledge of haiku and haiku history.  My replies and discussion has not taken into account that beginners would be attracted to the forum and infact I should have emphasized this in the beginning... "Beginners Beware"?  If it has caused undue concern I apologize.  Thanks for your insights.

Thanks Chibi.   8)

take care,

Don
ps... look over my sites.  I'd be glad to assist you with yours etc.  All the best, always.  Don

Quote from: Don Baird on December 16, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
Thanks Chibi.   8)

take care,

Don
ps... look over my sites.  I'd be glad to assist you with yours etc.  All the best, always.  Don

Don,

Thank you for your offer of assistance.  I will keep that in mind. 

Happy Holidays and a joyous New Year!

I can see that I need to try another approach towards the subject of a separate genre for non-Japanese poetry based upon the Japanese haiku as it concerns English short poetry (perhaps by focusing on English, first, we can at least narrow the discussion, but, the intent is not to say English only, because this may apply to any non-Japanese language/culture).

Let me ask the question to any that would like to reply: If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

Thank you for your kindnesses.

as a side note
though linked to this discussion

you know John Ford elevated the "Western" movie to epic status  (US)

Kurasawa did something similar with his Seven Samurai and Jojimbo movies  (japan)

later remade as violent Spaghetti Westerns (Italy)

Peckinpah took the violent western to its ultimate in stylisation

Tarantino in Kill Bill took the western back to Japan
and then back to the US
referencing lots of classic western films in the process


so my question is to what genre and who does Kill Bill belong to:

to all people of all nations would be my answer

like all art ; once it is out there it belongs to the world
discussion about source or semantics are limiting to us all
and the wonder that is haiku

Slainte  (that is Gaelic btw )

Col

Well said, col.

So very well said.

slàinte agad-sa,
cat

Ok... I think I'm seeing by both Colin and Cat's reply... I just don't get it? 

I think this is key to my disconnect.  What you say as not important, seems to me important.

Again we're talking about the merit of the effort.  That's fine, but, why reply?  If you don't want to help me move the weight, don't pull my rope  :o

If you do, then please reply to the my comment:

If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

(no offense is intended to either of you, i'm struggling with focus here, what other way can I say it)

Hmmm... I was a little abrupt there... my finger-mind-frustration link some time takes over.

Colin... in your reply, if I can use your analogy of film... let's take for example anime.  Hmmm... that's what I'm talking about.  Why not call it just "cartoon"?  Well... it is different to deserve a name of its own.

Cat... I realize that you're supporting the merits of Colin's reply.  I agree to the facts represented in Colin's reply resonates some of your previous positions.  No problem in that, although, I guess it fueled my frustraton in myself that I am not getting the focus conveyed on my concern.

but surely anime comes from the French

i do like some Japanese anime (manga) but given your arguments
you had better find another word to describe it  ???

ok lol

col :)

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 18, 2010, 01:35:32 PM
but surely anime comes from the French

i do like some Japanese anime (manga) but given your arguments
you had better find another word to describe it  ???

ok lol

col :)

Col... ok ... you've pulled my rope (which direction, I'm not sure)   ;D  But, my point is anime is a DIFFERENT word than "cartoon" or that "manga" is a different term than "comic book".  You don't see what I'm talking about is the name change is justified due to the change?  Of course presently in the USA "comic books" have become "graphic novels" due mostly to a more positive spin; but, they are now mixing the names "comic book" and "graphic novel".  The change is OWNERSHIP... the USA has decided through the enfluence of "manga" to separate the two by calling the taxonomy: comic book => manga (Japanese centric); and, comic book => graphic novel (USA centric).  I ask no more than to consider this approach for: haiku => ??? in English speaking peoples.  We need to take OWNERSHIP because it IS a DIFFERNT genre!!  Why is this so hard?

Ta Col

chibi  8)

as a quick side note:

It was Shiki who got the idea of shasei from American painting and sketch art ... he coined the term as a result of American influence and he personally delved into sketching on paper as well as in the way he envisioned haiku.  In that regard, Japanese haiku was modified via the influence of the English language and American customs.  That should directly relate to your needs.

Don

Don,

So you are suggesting the idea of shasei be retained in a new genre (if a new genre was formed)?

No, I'm suggesting the new genre be called English Haiku and then, in general, just don't say English.  I think it should be shortened to Haiku which would be very fitting in this case as our language has effected the original Japanese haiku so much, we should honor our influence by maintaining the name.  Possibly the Japanese would like to adjust there's by calling it English Influenced Haiku in the future.  The would be more than appropriate.

I would go with all of this above. It's a fair and resonable solution for us all. 

Don

Chibi,

while it's true that Shiki staked a claim to what he thought hokku should (for better and worse) be, and then sold it by calling it haiku, I'm sorry to say I think your observation,

"Of course presently in the USA "comic books" have become "graphic novels" due mostly to a more positive spin; but, they are now mixing the names "comic book" and "graphic novel".  The change is OWNERSHIP... the USA has decided through the enfluence of "manga" to separate the two by calling the taxonomy: comic book => manga (Japanese centric); and, comic book => graphic novel (USA centric)."

is not so much about ownership as marketing.

Mark, do you care to respond to my comment:

If there were a separate genre or genres for non-Japanese poetry based upon Japanese haiku, what would be some of the components you would want the genre to contain or not contain?  If you could also give your reasoning for each component within your reply.

Your point about marketing is also valid as I indirectly implied with "more positive spin". 

Don, so your suggesting we call the genre English haiku, then, drop the English?  And you speak for us all?   ???  Let me at least say, huh?  No thank you, but, thank you for your reply, eventhough, as I read it you indiretly and again support no change.  So you say that as an answer is a non-answer?  Then why oh why my dear friend did you reply at all?  This was your sly sense of humor no doubt?  (please put yourself in my place and see if you don't think your reply confusing and frustrating).

Yes Chibi, I was jesting a little.   :)

But seriously,  I honestly believe that in today's light, that the Japanese Haiku should be called English Influenced Haiku (as a result of Shiki's reformation).  So, we have two categories:

In all sincerity:

"English Influenced Japanese Haiku" - EIH (for short) for Japan
"Japanese Influenced Foreign Haiku" - JIH (Japanese influenced haiku)  for all those countries outside of Japan.  

I won third place two years in a row at the Kusamakura International Haiku Contest in the Foreign Division.  That's where I'm getting this idea from.  They listed me as foreign division.  They listed the Japanese as they are.

You are either Japanese or Foreign.  Not fair to say: Japanese and English (or American)... what about the rest of the world? This must be a much broader picture than just the USA.  There are folks all over the world writing these gems today.  We need an appropriate name for all non Japanese Haijin, haiku practitioners.

My suggestion:

EIH for Japan:  JIH for all countries other than Japan.  This gives everyone a win/win.  Then folks can say haiku from any country (for short) but not without realizing the more formal and grander names of EIH and JIH respectively.

Thank you for your efforts.  These are names that I could live with.

take care,

Don

Don, thanks.

Let me digest now the names you are proposing.  In the mean time, if you would identify what components within each that you would support and why?

For example, kigo, would apply to both?  Etc...

For my blood pressure, if you would kind sir hint when you are joking... I have yet to master the "serious" versus "jest" determination.

:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

Thanx sensei.

Hello, chibi,

Well, I guess I'll have a go at it, then . . .

Whatever it's called -- I call it "English-language haiku" and I think that's a very clear term that: clues everyone that it's not Japanese-language haiku; is inclusive of everyone writing haiku in English whether they're in the US, Australia, Bulgaria, Ghana, India, or anywhere else; and is non-judgmental, which is very important to me -- I think some of the important elements are nature, seasonality (whether strictly by kigo or by what's relevant to one's own little corner of the world), image, and sensory details, all of which combine to give the reader an experience and a fresh perception of the world in some small way.  I think structure is important, although with one-line, two-line, three-line, zip, and no doubt other forms I'm not familiar with, I think being too stringent about structure (such as saying ELH must follow 5-7-5) is limiting for the sake of being limiting, not for the sake of the poem or the genre/form/whatever.  I would be happy to say no more than 17 syllables, and somewhat fewer if possible, arranged in a pattern that pleases the poet and provides the reader with a full experience of the moment that inspired the haiku to begin with.

You can no doubt see that I do not have a technical/theoretical brain and I can't argue the points of literary criticism, so I could very well have just made a complete fool of myself (heck, it isn't the first time and it won't be the last).  I consciously avoided using the Japanese terms because I wanted to be very clear in what I'm saying, and as a person who does not speak or read Japanese, my understanding of the terms probably does not have a depth and breadth that would allow me to use them to their fullest meaning. 

Well, foolish or not, someone had to get the ball rolling -- we are after all 6 pages into this discussion and I guess no one really has addressed the question.  I took a shot.  What else can ya do?

cat

Yes Chibi, I will.  I apologize about your blood pressure.   :o  Possibly meditate some?  :)

Two names:

Japan:  EIH:  English Influence Haiku in Japan.  Shiki was very influenced by English, by Amercia, really.  It had an incredible impact on his reformation of how haiku would be perceived and written in the future by many generations to come.  In fact,  he was so radical in his thoughts, he recognized that he needed a new name from hokku and haikai equating in some way to the new Shiki Haiku.  His style was no longer Japanese.  It was Shiki.  Possibly, the use of Shiki Haiku might be a winner as well.  There is a concept that would apply around the world including Japan.  He was English influenced:  non Japanese are struggling with the Japanese concepts ... but not the shiki concepts.  

Foreign:  JIH: Japanese Influence Haiku in all other locations but Japan.  This would be our division in America.  

Shiki Haiku:  this would be the name of everyone's haiku, really.  He is Japanese, but he was English (American) influenced.  Some of our ingenuity was more than welcomed by him.  He exploited many of non Japanese concepts to continue with his reform.  This one is really beneficial as it would allow everyone to use it and therefore keep us again, as a single family of haijin exploring the uses theories of writing haiku together.  Shiki Haiku.  Yes, honestly, Japan, America, Australia, England, France and the rest of the countries involved would have a united single name that we would all understand.

Shiki Haiku:  this is the reform haiku.  This is the haiku we've all be writing all over the world.  It's cutting edge.  It's free (as Shiki chatted and wrote about a lot).  It would contain the concepts of finding value right in front of you nose that's a haiku.  That where ever you are, a haiku is there with you (paraphrase).  

Secondly, in Shiki Haiku World Wide (to include everyone) I would start by suggesting the use of kigo.  Shiki referenced a kigo in every single haiku he wrote, as I understand it.  He was meticulous about that.  Next, the American artist sketch - his shasei, as a result, should be the core principle of how it is written - psychologically.  Then, possibly use S/L/S as the structure to imitate his lines the best we can in different languages.  He was strict 5/7/5.  But that is more of a natural quality of the Japanese language than anything.  Lets see if the Japanese can write poetry that doesn't rhyme!   :P   ( a joke) :)

This is fascinating.  I await your thoughts.

all the best,

Don

Don,

Good and thanx... this may take me years...  ;D

hai sensei

PS... my exploration of Shiki continues, so, this may also take me years, seriously.  8)

I'm with ya.  Lets start now.    8)   It's the perfect solution.  It would blend perfectly with the ELH as well.  We let Shiki be the guide.  We all fall into place.  He was the only renegade we need.  Now, we ban together and make it work for him post-mortum.  This is his dream too.  Now it's ours collectively. 

Shiki Haiku - a world wide movement to bring different cultures into the haiku experience.  EIF for Japan and JIF for all foreigners.  And then, a sub title of ELH (Gabi's reference) for any of those writing haiku in English. 

I'd be happy to help set this up with you and Gabi.  It would be great fun.

then we can deal with Kigo, kire, kigo,karumi, kiregi, on (onji), shasei, and the rest one at a time.  We could have a nice reference manual in probably a year or so.

many blessings, Chibi

Don

Cat, you're not an Alanis Morissette fan, eh?  ;D

She recommends as I to make a fool of oneself... you'll be joining legions!

Let me think on your reply.


Don, slow down!  Let me take a breath or two or three ... stay  8)



Seriously, this may take some time and I will try to parce the suggestions in each reply; and, if any more genre to components come to mind just pile them on with my sincere thanks.


ciao

how about we keep Haiku for the Japanese poets

and every non-Japanese i.e. foreign writer of the poems formally known as haiku
will now have to call their poetic efforts Forku

Forku is a compound taking the first part of "foreign" with "ku" tacked on as a suffix :P


col :)

Hey Col,

That word kind of resonates! LOL  forku ...  ::)

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 19, 2010, 03:56:21 PM
how about we keep Haiku for the Japanese poets

and every non-Japanese i.e. foreign writer of the poems formally known as haiku
will now have to call their poetic efforts Forku

Forku is a compound taking the first part of "foreign" with "ku" tacked on as a suffix :P


col :)

Hi Col,

Forku and the kigo you rode in on!   ;D

Actually, you've got something with foreign ku contraction, but, I would parse it differently: foreiku fo{フォ},re{レ},i{イ},ku{ク}　フォレイク.

Cheers dude! Thanx for taking a step toward ownership.

Quote from: Don Baird on December 19, 2010, 07:32:41 PM
Hey Col,

That word kind of resonates! LOL  forku ...  ::)

Don, ditto with what I said to Col.

LOL... have a great holiday week!   :)

lol  chibi

good to see we are laughing now

cheers

col :)

I wonder if the proposal of new genre(s) to represent all haikuish poems outside of Japanese is sort of like the re-focus of Shiki as an inspiration for haikuish... maybe that is a possible name for the genre "haikuish"  sort of like combining languages that end in "ish" (English, Spanish, Scottish ...).  Well all that a bit "tongue through cheek" HO HO HO.

Japanese common haiku is composed with elements of the following (more or less basic components):

kigo This element is a challenge even for the Japanese sensei; and, although I know about the tools used like a sanctioned saijiki, there is much debate about the tweak of this tool and its certification.

kireji (not kire) although the root "kire" is within the word (CAUTION: using "kireji" in Japan outside the specific context of Japanese haiku means, "bleeding hemorrhoids"  -- a personal anecdote: while in Japan trying to discuss in Japanese my interest in Japanese art I used kireji out of context with a non-poet whose facial expression became a good example for "lost in translation"!!

kakekotoba (I haven't grasped the full depth of this element).  Do google exploration yourself and let's compare notes.

hiragana The Japanese official basic alphabet.  Each character has a specific and unique sound (there are regional variations in accents).

katakana The Japanese official basic alphabet used for non-native Japanese words, such as formal foreign names and words.

kanji  The borrowed Chinese symbology of picture-graphs (this covers most of the kanji which ironically has changed very little as opposed to current Chinese symbology).  In more advanced poetry, the symbology is usually from older eras.  From the sages, as it were.

My thinking and feeling is that any newly proposed genre should address a respectful way to understand and transport these elements.  This is part of taking OWNERSHIP for any derived from haiku genre.

As this is my way to address the explorational starting point in part from Shiki's HAIKU... it is "work in progress".

There's some interesting choices you've made.  Shiki made three:

kigo
one cut (kireji)
shasei

Shiki stated that these were the only aspects that absolutely needed to be there for writing haiku.  He was also a man of honest realsim in regards to writing his haiku.  Interesting to note, that Shiki "borrowing from the vocabulary of Western painting, he adopted the term shasei" (sketch from life). (Burton Watson, Masaoka Shiki Selected Poems).  He believed that everything around you was full of haiku to write about.  From mist, to clouds, rain, apples and the like, he wrote haiku.

"He urged them first of all not to be bound by the conventions of the past but to be open and natural in their approach and to endeavor to create works that conformed first of all to their own tastes".   He wanted them to break away from time worn themes and to write about their daily lives and what's around them and to conjure up the mood and emotion of them in haiku.  As he said in 1899, "Take your materials from what is around you".  Keep in mind, that Shiki never studied under any professional haijin.  He read to learn:  his approach was that of an "outsider".

He rejected wordplay, allusions and puns in general and he didn't like haiku "telling" stories .  He liked his poem to show ... a true shasei.

His goal was to create an "artistic moment the significance of which will far transcend the <technical> elements that go into it".  He wrote to inspire a mood or emotion.  He sought things around him that he could write about that would do that.  

With some of this in mind, the Shiki haiku requirement list would be:

kigo
cut
shasei
mood/emotion
stay away from wordplay, puns and allusions (etc)
5/7/5 (possibly ... though it comes naturally in Japanese)

Shiki was in an era where there was much cultural exchange.  While Japan was receiving a great many artistic influences from the West, the West was receiving a few in exchange including haiku.

It's clear that the language doesn't have pronouns etc.  But, I don't think they write as though they are not there.  It's clear they are.  They didn't have the need, aparently, to tell everyone else the "I" was there or it is "my" dog ... as in that culture, that, in context, was a given.

Interesting stuff.

These are the only crucial ingredients that Shiki maintained were important.  What a nice and simple list for others to begin their writing haiku from.  Shiki didn't like complexity in structure.  It's apparent he liked the simplicity of it and the straight-forwardness of it.  I have no interest in making more difficult than his suggestions as outlined above.

Shiki Haiku marks the one liner "simplicity is a giant" as monumental.

I'm really busy these next weeks ... I'll be in and out here.  Probably not much more to say.  I'd rather spend more time writing haiku and my books than discussing if it's possible or not for a person who speaks English. There are so many great examples of haiku in English and I enjoy them as such.  So much talent on this planet:  it's awesome!

all the best,

Don

I consider this topic a non-debate.  Who should name poetry if not poets?  and "what's in a name?" 
oh rose!

for myself... the new word I am hearing is "mico poems"  it is fitting,  modern, digital,.....

I have practiced writing haiku in english for thirty yrs.  The form appealed to me. I wrote one in japanese.  I found that what is valuable to me is that practicing the form trained my poetic mind in a way that improves my art.  call my poems what you like.   

Hi onecloud,

"I consider this topic a non-debate" (onecloud).   

I do too.  But, I've always liked to theorize with Chibi.  He enjoys it and it causes me to ponder and often solidify what my outlooks/beliefs are regarding haiku.  My haiku always improve through the efforts of these chats. 

great seeing you here,

Don
:)

Don, thanks for your reply. I've got to get your resources for Shiki.  Most of what I've explored is from the world wild web  ;D

onecloud, thank you for your reply.  I've heard of "micro poetry" and "micro poems".  I see you are a proponent of "practice makes perfect".  My tai chi sensei had a twist to that and took it one step further, he felt, "perfect practice makes perfect" and warned that flawed technique is much harder to correct than if you clear the technique at the beginning.  

Thirty years, I'm only in my eleven year or so.  Did you have a mentor or teacher, and if so, whom?  I am glad poetry has helped you along your path.  Do you have some particular element or set of elements you include in your poetry?

Don,
yes, and thank you,

The first american haiku poet I read is Gary Snyder.

chibi,
perfect is perfect...
I didn't have a teacher to correct my form.

Hello, Chibi,

I am so glad to see you say, "Perfect practice makes perfect."  I have been telling my students a variation of that ("Practice makes proficient, but only perfect practice makes perfect.") for years, and if I should happen to say it during a discussion in a faculty meeting, which I do when the occasion demands, I have colleagues who look at me as though I've just sprouted a second head.

On the flip side, as the daughter of a perfectionist father and having perfectionist tendencies myself, I've spent years trying to get away from the need to be "perfect" in every area of my life.  It's a losing game.  I take comfort in the fourth of the Four Agreements of Don Miguel Ruiz:

"Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret."

How can we expect more of ourselves than that?

Okay, wandering waaaaay off-topic here.

cat

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 19, 2010, 03:56:21 PM
how about we keep Haiku for the Japanese poets

and every non-Japanese i.e. foreign writer of the poems formally known as haiku
will now have to call their poetic efforts Forku

Forku is a compound taking the first part of "foreign" with "ku" tacked on as a suffix :P


col :)

This suggestion has potential! Since haiku written in other languages than our own are foreign,
and the Japanese already have a way of calling haiku in languages other than Japanese 'Forku',
every nation in the world could reserve the name 'Haiku' for their own haiku and refer to the haiku of other nations, including the Japanese, as 'Forku'.

Perhaps for diplomatic purposes the English spelling could be changed to the more phonetic 'Forkyu', though, so everyone would understand?

This would also work with particular groups or 'sects' in the haiku world. If my way of writing haiku is influenced by a different sense of poetics than yours, you could call it 'Forkyu', and vice versa.

My Haiku, your Forkyu...easy!

I think you've solved the problem of naming, Col.

- Lorin

Lorin,

I embrace your reasoning fully.   :o

:)

Don

lol lorin

but you write in Aussie English
does that make you foreign

so you do forkyu too ;D

col :)

That means AELH! for Lorin.  And Col, SELH for you!  This is a complex endeavor.   :P

Don

Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 21, 2010, 07:23:37 PM
lol lorin

but you write in Aussie English
does that make you foreign

so you do forkyu too ;D

col :)

Foreign to you, perhaps, Col. So you would be within your rights to say 'Forkyu' to my haiku, should you choose to do so, and I could say the same to yours, same as in all happy families.  8)

- Lorin

Don,

Still exploring Shiki... What is yours (or anyone's) thoughts on "haiku" before Shiki?  It is confusing to me that Shiki's first encounter with Japanese short poetry was on portraits.  Were these poems extracted from "hakai no renga" as they seemed to be limited to 17 Japanese alphabetic letters (in any combination of words (in hiragana/katakana/kanji) based upon I suspect the hokku?  I do not think these were poems were really called haiku, because, I believe Shiki was to have coined the word/form later.

I also am discovering an aspect of Shiki's era that the ripples of Meiji reform/restoration threatened traditional Japanese literature especially those notions from the Tokugawa era and before.  Shiki was very concerned that poetry (such as tanka and haikai no renga) may be completely surpressed to the point of extenction!

Also, the works you sighted referes to Japanese short poem masters as haiku masters when in fact they were tanka, haikai no renga, senryu, and zappai teacher/masters.  The confusion, I feel, was the rather mistaken notion that haiku was already recognized as a literary form.  Bashou technically wrote no haiku, in fact, the elements of haiku were not defined prior to Shiki, as I believe the Japanese literature linage shows.

Shiki's strongest supported points for haiku:

haiku was real literature;
haiku must be grounded in reality; and
the prior masters must be replaced

(ref page 31, Masaoka Shiki: his life and works By Janine Beichman)

There will be more to explore...

Ciao... Chibi

Hi Chibi...

Yes... to my knowledge, there was no such thing as haiku (the word) prior to Shiki.  He apparently coined the word from hokku and haikai.  And, I agree ...  Basho didn't write haiku is how I understand it.  He would have never heard the word.

"Shiki was very concerned that poetry (such as tanka and haikai no renga) may be completely surpressed to the point of extenction!" chibi ...

     Very true, Chibi.  That was a driving force behind Shiki's life work.  However, it wasn't until a short time before his death that he began to delve into Tanka.  He was very apt at it and also wanted it to survive right along with his haiku. I suspect that if it weren't for Shiki, haiku (or haikai, rather) may not be written by anyone, including the Japanese, today.  Haikai was losing favor and position, it seems.

Interesting to note:  Western art was one of the primary influences to his writing including the very principle of "shasei". 

Enjoyable stuff. 

all my best,

Don