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The death of haiku:  is it imminent due to lack of kigo and new words?  

"The end is near.  There are almost no new variations left to write haiku.  Of three lines, one is given to the kigo and only two lines are left to bring about added interest to the image and seal the deal.  1/3 of the haiku is a given ... words the traditionalists look up in the saijiki and use again and again."  (a paraphrase of what I've heard recently)

the moon
etc.
etc.

How many haiku have we seen with the moon (the famous autumn kigo).  Thousands of poems world wide have used the same first (or last) line in their haiku.  With only two lines to go, how many different ways can we finish this haiku?  We must stay within the boundaries of 5/7/5 (thinking in Japanese) (or S/L/S in English) which gives us just 12 "on" left to write the haiku.  Are there enough words  left in any language to finish this poem in a brand new way ... that would fit in the space left in the haiku?  

The theory is (not mine, but as I've heard it) that when clinging to a set such as kigo, even though the list grows, it is always and forever growing as a result of new word use by the poets.  What I'm saying is the kigo comes first and then its inclusion in the saijiki comes next.  Therefore, there never is anything new for Japanese haijin to use from the saijiki up front.  By the time anyone sees it in the saijiki, it has already been used and everyone else that uses it, is doing so after the fact.

Next, in this "moon haiku" we can throw in some wind, a frog, a howling, a reflection, a few clouds, the smell of a fireplace and so forth.  However, there are three clubs in Japan with over 10,000 members each and they are dedicated to writing haiku everyday.  Well, today's the day.  It starts out "the moon", an autumn kigo.  Out of 30,000 poems, how many do you think will match exactly?  How few variations of words do we really have to finish our poems?  And, how long will it be before every variation has already been written and "game is over"?  If we begin right here and now, how long will it be before some of the 30,000 poets will not be able to finish the poem because all of the options have been taken?

Is there an end in sight as a result of this?  Do we need more than kigo such as keywords, season reference and more to keep haiku alive and well for future generations?  Do we need to open the door to creative thought to let haiku grow and change as an art form?  Or do we let it run its natural course which will conclude with its own demise by not having the word power to sustain it (without some serious incidental plagerism).

How many of you have already written a haiku that matches one that already exists or close to it? (that you've found out about later on through someone etc).  It's happened to me several times.  I hear of it happening on a frequent basis.  "This ones too close to that one" and so forth.  Are we already facing a problem and, if so, is it going to get worse?  

What is the answer?

This is me "just thinking out loud".  What are your thoughts?

all my best,

Don
ps.  Don't take me wrongly.  I love including kigo, season words and references to nature ... I also like using keywords and writing urban haiku and haiku of street grit that use the same, identical principles as haiku but without the kigo reference.  Shiki wrote several hundred without kigo reference.  So have other Japanese masters throughout the ages. Are we running out of words to create new and interesting haiku?  

Good one, Don !

My Japanese haiku sensei would say:

Take the kigo and add an angle that has not been explored yet (at least not in any saijiki, nowadays we have to check online with so many personal BLOGs about haiku ...  ;D )

With so many moons already viewed ... my moon tonight is still the special MY moon and I will try and squeeze it into another haiku for you ... come tonight ... come tonight ...  :)

Gabi
sitting in snow in the afternoon, maybe not able to view the moon tonight, but that has also already been explored in many haiku ... when we can NOT see the moon, it is still up there in the sky ...

.

Hey Gabi...

Who would guess we would run out of words cuz haiku is so small?  LOL  Ok, I'm awaiting a new moon haiku from you after tonight!

I like this: "take the kigo and add an angle that has not been explored yet" ... sounds like a sharp sensei!  

snowing
the moon I cannot see
still there

:)

Who would guess we would run out of words cuz haiku is so small?

For my Japanese haiku friends, I guess, they will never run out of words, or angles to see things through kigo  in a fresh way ... after all, that is the essence of Japanese haiku !

For ELH ... let others speak.

Gabi

Hi Don I see your point, but I feel Gabi's sensei has hit the nail on the head when he said his students should try to do something unexpected with the kigo/fragment or whatever anyone wants to call it.

So often you see haiku that let's the phrasal part of the poem be dictated to by the fragment but it is possible if you ponder on it long enough for you to come up with a phrase that changes the original meaning of the fragment thus allowing people to see yet another angle.     

John :)

I agree, John.  I was studying the math of it and pondering the possibility of the limitation... it's an interesting argument ... but in the end, I agree that there remain so many variables that endless possibilities yet remain.  It would be interesting to know the exact math however.  :)

Haiku are indeed another wonder of the world.  I'll die with them on my mind!

Thanks for coming by to comment. 

Don

For someone who does something consistently original with moon verses try out Mirrormoon:
http://prunejuice.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/book-review-2/ (http://prunejuice.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/book-review-2/)

Also highly recommended for bring consistency to original haiku:
http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html (http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html)

I had the privilege of being the consulting editor behind the scenes for Helen's Water on the Moon.  Anyone interested in keeping their haiku fresh and vital should get Water on the Moon, and consider getting Mirrormoon as a companion book.

Gabi Greve has some very good points to say about kigo, and she has had five years or more intensive research behind her comments.

John says:
So often you see haiku that let's the phrasal part of the poem be dictated to by the fragment but it is possible if you ponder on it long enough for you to come up with a phrase that changes the original meaning of the fragment thus allowing people to see yet another angle.

I think most haiku should do this anyway, so good point John. It's the point of juxtaposition in haiku, and also I believe in the disjunction technique.

Don raises some good points about kigo.  Also I believe some kigo subjects occur in one season but are designated a later season because they've become kigo. Gabi can help here. ;-)

I remember a kigo subject in late July being an Autumn/Fall kigo! ;-)

If you read the really good creators of fresh haiku you'll see that the formula is able to throw up new twists and turns but avoiding being gimmicky. 

But I think a haiku club with thousands of members expected to churn out haiku will do just that, mechanically conveyor belt out similar haiku just to get the dirty deed done.

I think the West and other non-Japanese countries have done really well with haiku in such a short time.  There are quite a few Japanese haiku writers who utilise our aspects of haiku.

Don't forget, anyone Japanese using Shiki's methods are automatically incorporating Western art and writing techniques. ;-)

Alan

I can't remember who said it, and I'm paraphrasing, but: if you are alive to your experience, your haiku will be alive. If you are not alive to it (if for example, you are casting about for a haiku) your haiku will not be alive. Doesn't matter the subject.

Why write a "moon" or "first snow" or "Indian summer" haiku if your experience is not fresh, if it has not overtaken you?

Tray (Adam Traynor)
Portland ME

OMG, a fellow Maine-iac!  Hi, Tray!

Coming at this discussion from fiction once again . . .

It's said there are what, twelve basic plots?  Would one not think that every story had been told so many times there is nothing new to say?  And yet excellent and original short stories and novels appear every year.

I participate in three kukai -- the Shiki Kukai has well over 100 entries each month, the Caribbean Kigo Kukai in the twenties, and the Sketchbook Kukai somewhere in between.  Since we all write on one kigo (or in the Shiki, one kigo and one free-format keyword), one would think the poems would be pretty much the same -- and yet, each month when I get my ballots, there are haiku that blow me away because they are so striking, so different, so evocative, so well-put, so fresh.  In the Shiki, I have never seen more than three related haiku/mirrored haiku in any month. 

The only way haiku will run out of steam is if we run out of steam -- if we stop mining the moments of our experience for a fresh take and fresh language.  It's the same as not stepping into the same river twice -- that moon is up there, but every night, if you give your attention to it and look for the details, you can see that it is a different moon, and everything else in the night is different, too, last night's nightengale, tonight's skunk, the light on the water or the wind in the trees.

cat

.
full moon ...
our planet is never
on the darkside

Don, as kigo expands from Earth's seasons to other solar system planets' seasons, I suspect that we will have a Sagan Saijiki... millions and millons of seasons.  Then, when a "Don" then comes to your conclusion, a "chibi" then might quip, we need a Spock Saijiki... infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

Live short and perspire... \\//

ciao

Great responses.  Thanks for joining in.

"I think the West and other non-Japanese countries have done really well with haiku in such a short time.  There are quite a few Japanese haiku writers who utilise our aspects of haiku. "  ~AS

Good thought, Alan.

"Spock Saijiki" ~ chibi

That's a good one chibi!  If you made a Spock Saijiki in the USA today, it would probably make you a billiionaire.  LOL  I enjoyed your response.  Thanks chibi!  Thanks, Gabi!

"The only way haiku will run out of steam is if we run out of steam " ~ cat

Another great responses, cat!  Thanks!  And yes, I like your idea of writing kigo challenges ... where everyone contributes a poem based on the kigo chosen.  I love that idea!  I'll look it over more and IM you back with my thoughts. 

full moon ...
the pages of my book
out of the dark

"Why write a "moon" or "first snow" or "Indian summer" haiku if your experience is not fresh, if it has not overtaken you? " ~ Tray

I couldn't agree more, Tray.  Well stated!  Thanks for joining in.

A very interesting thread.  The responses are great, enthusiastic and well thought out.

Don

.

day moon
the dish rag
wearing thin                   

- Acorn #22, Fall 2009,  red moon anthology, where the wind turns, 2010

- Lorin

holding a moth
in your cupped hands
moonrise

HC, miniWORDS competition, UK, 2007

re moon verses:

Helen Buckingham is perhaps one of the most original of moon verse writers. 

Here are a selection from her much praised collection Water on the Moon:



nil by mouth—
peeling and dicing
the moon


day moon
a child adjusts
   her tiara


glitterball moon...
the rain
still dancing


harvest moon:
the tortoise's mouth
painted red


graffiti
sharper
by moonlight


water on the moon...                                     
we're ready
with harpoons


wolf moon
waking
his fur on my tongue


   salt spray...
holding a Pringle
    to the moon


hunger moon
  the model returns
to her circle of chalk

Water on the Moon book details:
http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html (http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html)

The companion book (also a standalone book) is mirrormoon for more, and exclusively original and fresh moon verses:
http://prunejuice.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/book-review-2/ (http://prunejuice.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/book-review-2/)


I write a few, but they pale besides Helen's originality:

Moon haiku by Alan Summers


escape velocity
the moon pulls oceans
behind Apollo 11

Publications credits:
"Rocket Dreams" World Space Week commission 2007; Montage online july 2010


above the mountain
earth's shadow
blocks a moon

Note:  eclipse of the moon, Queensland, Australia, Friday 4th June 1993

Publications credits:
Frogpond (Summer 1994); Fellowship of Australian Writers, Queensland, Scope magazine (paid) feature (1994); Micropress Yates (1994); Haiku Friends (Umeda 2003)

low over the hill
a red moon waxes
  the empty road ahead

Publications credits:
HI #22 (1996); Moonlighting,  Intimations Pamphlet Series BHS Profile, (1996); Azami Special Edition, Japan, ed. Alan Summers (1997); sundog haiku journal: an australian year (sunfast press 1997 reprinted 1998); Ukku Spring Haiku Seasonal Blog (2006); 3Lights Gallery 'Nocturne' (2008)


night jasmine
trying to find it...
the yellow half moon

Publications credits:
Presence 14  (2001); Cornell University, Mann Library, U.S.A. "Daily Haiku" poet October 2001


waxing ice moon
through the alleys
a market sets up

Simply Haiku Vol. 1, No. 3 (2003)
*ice moon starts from 4 Dec. for about two weeks.


Alan

A bit off topic here, but thanks Alan for all those Helen Buckingham haiku. I am a big fan of Helen's and always left in awe of her skill.

Thanks John. 

Helen just shows us we can be completely fresh about moon haiku, and a lot of other haiku subjects covered so well in the past, that need new writers to approach them their way, but as relevant.

Alan

The moon is something we all share. It's so universal that, from the old Japanese masters to today's EL haiku, it appears perennially, yet its possibilities in haiku seems undiminished.

Here are four from the selections I made for the first four issues of Notes From the Gean', one from each issue:

rising moon
my knife divides
the fish's belly

-Graham Nunn, Australia, NFTG, vol. 1, issue 1


strawberry moon
all night something huge
romps in the attic

Carolyn Hall, USA  - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 2


snow moon eclipse eclipsed by snow

Ann K. Schwader, USA - NFTG, vol. 1, issue 3


milk moon
their faces tilt
in turn

Helen Buckingham, UK  -NFTG, vol. 1, issue 4

- Lorin

Hi Alan,

While I really enjoyed your post it is off topic in a way.  The concept I'm bringing out here (not my idea, actually ... more of relaying what I have read) is for example:

what if the haiku started out,

the moon

... only.  Not another fragment but the moon.  No other subsitutions.  What would be the math of how many phrases that could be made before we ran out of any possible variance?  That's the specific question of my post.  I think the responses are off topic at this point.  It isn't about expertise either, actually.  It's one of math.  The original question was posed by folks in Japan during the wars over the need of kigo (that's my undesrtanding ... I had ran across an article about it awhile back and was pondering it ... now, I can't find the darn article ... sigh!)  And, ps ... to it all ... I'm not saying that my inquisition reflects my personal beliefs either.  I just posted this for the sake of exchange.  I'm not posting this as a stance, a belief or a suggestion.  What I have here is a simple question.  

Is there a finite numer of finishes to a poem that starts out, the moon?  With only a phrase left and a max of 12 syllables, is there a finite number of finishes we can use or is it still infinite.  And, if you believe it is infinite, how would you theorize a proof of that?

An interesting topic.  I wish I created it, actually.  But, I didn't.  This is something I ran across in my reading and then was too dumb to save the link!  Now, that is how I annoy myself sometimes!  LOL

What's the math?  And, in that math ... is it finite or infinite?

all my best and of utmost respect...

Don

.
mooning
the moon --
moonroof

(special car-eography)

:D ??? ;D

Hey Chibi,

Great.  Now, I have an idea.  Will you write one hundred of these?  Same kigo?  "the moon" .  Then if we can get four other people to write one hundred each, when finished, we reveal them and see how many come to close match.  From there, we can create a formula that might predict, based on the complexity of the fragment/kigo ... how many close matches we will have on another five hundred as well as extrapolate it into a formula that would apply to ten thousand ...?  Of course, I'm just a poet and martial teacher ... but surely there is a mathmetician that can help us with the stats.  That would be cool. 

On the other hand... lets play a game.  On another board, Share Haiku, I have posted a kigo.  Lets each write five poems to it for over the next ten days.  And then, add another kigo, and do the same again.  Lets see how creative we can be with our phrases while we all use the same kigo!  Another challenging, but fun way to study writing and haiku.  The more folks involved, the more interesting this will become!  :)

Please join us there.

Don

ps... ok cat, we're on.  It's time to play! and learn.

What fun!

Thanks, Don.

cat

Quote from: Don Baird on February 13, 2011, 08:17:12 PM
Hi Alan,

While I really enjoyed your post it is off topic in a way.  The concept I'm bringing out here (not my idea, actually ... more of relaying what I have read) is for example:

what if the haiku started out,

the moon

SNIP

Don

If you mean if 1000 people were coerced into a room and wrote one haiku each, and the first line could only be : the moon  I guess it depends on the people.

Are they creative writers?  Have they ever done haiku before? Are they seasoned writers in haiku? 

I think the math would be slightly different, but every haiku would be technically autumn unless they wrote a conflicting kigo or season word, but then that might not make it a haiku. ;-)

Would "the moon's" be allowed? ;-)

Alan

Well Alan, I wasn't talking about coercion.  LOL  I was referencing a "slightly" lighter side of things, actually!  LOL  (just kidding with ya)

I always appreciate your wit.

Don

Don,

The fact is that if you gave the word "moon" even in a Japanese haiku circle lead by a haijin sensei.  Very few poems would be identical.  If we had a "formula" approach as I think you're implying might be associated with using a saijiki, I think even with the 5-7-5 constraint of the Japanese, I still feel few poems will be the same.  I think this is demonstrated even in English in the Shiki Kukai.

Haiku... takes a licking and keeps on ticking (ref. Timex commercial)  ;D

Time'll tell, as you've said in other posts.

Thanks chibi, for your thoughts.  Yes, I still think the math of "limited" language to create new poems in such a small venue is there.  But, what is more frightening, really, is the thought that writing from the wrong intention, will create an uninspired poem.  So, while we ponder this thought/study there are side aspects such as inspiration and "us forcing a haiku" versus the "haiku coming to us ... revealing itself to us. 

The experiement (once we hit ten thousand versions, will prove itself in terms of how many haiku can be written with one line already taken up with fixed kigo.  But, there are so many other aspects that are going to come up which will reveal to us that at least much of the haiku must come from personal experience and of witnessing an event - written in the now or from memory.

Interesting stuff.  I cherish haiku and it's true process.  It is an interesting study however, to search for its limitations, if any.

Thanks again chibi,

Don

Is the clock five to midnight on haiku?

Just a catalyst statement, and reminescent of the Cold War. ;-)

Alan

Hi Alan,

Interesting thought!  Great seeing ya!

8)

Hi Don,
    hadn't written a moon poem in a long time. then one day, the beagles took me for a walk, and a day moon was out that morning. A crow happened to be there. The juxtaposition made a good ku. That's how I happen to write these haiku--am sure I'm not special in this method. Simple. The world arranged itself for me and I found it suitable and came back to the house to scribble it in my journal.
    At another workshop, a poet said that poems about day moons can't be done anymore at least to his satisfaction as an editor. Well, so much for his theory.  The poem appeared in a notable journal despite his objection.
   Your wonderful challenge of writing on the moon will likely produce close calls but no exact copies--and many gems--because that's what haijins do with their spare time. Personally, I only entertain the moon that I find rising over pine boughs, or setting in the bay of the Atlantic at the bottom of my street. I've got the patent on my unique arrangement of its light and influence on me.
   By the way, I wrote a moon haiku also about mooning. It appeared back some long time ago in Modern Haiku when Robert Spiess, god rest his soul, was the editor. It was back in that other century before the dawn of the I-Pod, Facebook, and the Twitter account. I'm going too toot my own horn because nobody else will, and you all might as well get a chuckle--especially if you forgot I also put it on another thread here. forgetting is a wonderful thing my friends.

dropping their pants,
the young campers moon
the moonlight cruise


paul cordeiro



   




   


     

Hi Paul,

I fully agree with you.  I felt it was a great challenge to folks to post this concept and discuss it.  As we all can see, there will be quite a few years left to go by before we get into duplication of efforts ... though, it happens occasionally today.

Your thoughts are appreciated and I agree with them fully.

Take care and thanks for joining in.

Don

my cat
dressed for Halloween
a blue moon

hahahaaha!!!!

Paul,

:D I knew it was you as soon as I read "the beagles took me for a walk".

It's so lovely to hear your straightforward, down to earth, honest and unique voice here.

. . .all the neighbourhood Staffies (Staffordshire Terriers) still seek me out, even if no-one else loves me  . . . . .maybe I should get one of my own   8)

...and:

day moon
the dish rag
wearing thin

- Acorn #22, Fall 2009, + red moon anthology, where the wind turns, 2010

Yes, it can be read metaphorically, as I'm sure Carolyn Hall ( a great editor, btw) is aware.

- Lorin

Hi Don and All,
  what I like about Lorin's poem: one phenomena exists side by side with the other. In other words,
correspondence. It is image rhyme.

  dish rag thin
  day moon thin


paul

 Thanks, Paul.

If a reader then went from there to suspect that, not only does a day moon look thin and a bit worn against the sky and the actual, literal dish rag is wearing thin (the correspondence between the two images, as you say)  but there also might be something about the dishwasher that could be wearing thin too (his/her patience with dishwashing, perhaps?) they wouldn't be far wrong.  ;)

(this is metonym, btw...when a thing represents the person it's associated with as well as having it's ordinary, literal meaning)

ploughing on
  through a storm of bulldust –
    the horned moon

- paper wasp,Summer 2010 , vol 16, no 1(March 2010)

I doubt that this ku would've been published anywhere but in Australia.  ;D

(bulldust has both a literal and a colloquial meaning)

http://media.photobucket.com/image/bulldust/JobMattijssen/Camping%20Dec2007-2/TrafficsignbulldustDSC01765_resize.jpg?o=11

- Lorin

Dear Don,

You write: "Do we need more than kigo such as keywords, season reference and more to keep haiku alive and well for future generations?"

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but my understanding is that "kigo" and "seasonal reference" are the same thing.

Larry Bole

Quote from: Larry on May 08, 2011, 10:31:24 PM
Dear Don,

You write: "Do we need more than kigo such as keywords, season reference and more to keep haiku alive and well for future generations?"

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but my understanding is that "kigo" and "seasonal reference" are the same thing.

Larry Bole

Kigo and 'seasonal reference', in my understanding, were not originally the same thing in Japan, nor were they until relatively recently. The concept of kigo is bound up with official approval: eg a seasonal reference is not a kigo until it is included in an approved saijiki. This may not be all that relevant in Japan in modern times, since so many new kigo have been added in the past 100 years.

It is relevant to EL haiku, though, since EL haiku is not centred on a monoculture, such as Japan. Christmas, for example , is like a kigo in the sense that it indicates a cultural season for many groups throughout the English -speaking world (and elsewhere) on the same calendar date, but it is not an indicator of a point in the natural cycle of the seasons.

For example, this ku of mine includes reference to both the cultural 'season' and the natural season, but it does not have two kigo. The two references would clash in Japan, but they don't where I live:

silent night
the shrill counterpoint
of cicadas

- A Wattle Seedpod, PostPressed 2008; Haiku Calendar 2011 (Snapshot Press, 2010).

"Dolls' Festival", like all kigo, show both the cultural 'season' and the natural season that the festival occurs in, in Japan and it is listed (along with hundreds of other words including 'air conditioner') in the official saijiki.

In the English-speaking world, even in the various regions of the English-speaking world, there are no officially approved saijiki, to date. Who would be the body of experts appointed to approve the entries?

- Lorin

Hi Lorin,

Why concern yourself with kigo if you're not writing haiku?

The kigo question is rather remote given the type of poems being written without it.  Mix-match, cut uncut... what does it matter if you're not writing haiku.  I think this is very freeing for modern poets that are writing a new form of lyrical poetry.  Sure, the poet may be aware of haiku and its component usage, but, really why bother?  I enjoy many of the poems created this way. (It may cross your mind that this is sarcastic, but, I assure you it is really the way I feel and it is not sarcasm).

I think we here as foundation members should be and are moving on to a wider and freer form.

I have presented my approach (if it ain't Japanese... it ain't haiku) but I do not and can not recommend it for every poet (I should not).  It is simply my approach.

If you want to look up another Denis' oppinion and approach, google anything on Denis M. Garrison.  His approach is similar (not identical) to mine.  It may be his is more flexible, a bit.

Write away!! Is what I say!

ciao... chibi

PS I recommend reading and writing.  A healthy harmony of both is best.

Hi Dennis,

Glad to see a light but no less challenging viewpoint.  ;-)

Whatever poets label themselves as, and label their work as, we should embrace polite challenges from people like you, Viva Las Chiba! ;-)

I've enjoyed our sparring, and you have been both articulate and generous, thank you.

Alan

That's Viva Las Chibi! to you Alan  ;D

Your generousity and enthusiasm is stellar!

(Ouch!  It hurts when you break eachothers arms patting eachother on the back, eh?)

Hi Dennis,

I feel praise is needed when someone posts a challenging post that is polite, contains humor, and makes the reader look at themselves and their work in a new light.

Well done! ;-)

Alan

Lorin, et al:

I stand corrected regarding 'kigo'. I just came across an essay by Richard Gilbert, "Kigo Versus Seasonal Reference in Haiku: Observations, Anecdotes and a Translation," in which he distinguishes between Japanese 'kigo' and Engish-language haiku (ELH) 'seasonal references'.

Gilbert points out that 'kigo' also has a cultural component for the Japanese, as well as a seasonal component, whereas 'seasonal references' don't necessarily have a cultural component for English-language haikuists.

I would, however, like to add that 'kigo' also has a 'literary tradition' component in addition to a cultural component for the Japanese. I base this opinion on a discussion of 'kigo' by Kooji Kawamoto in his book, "The Poetics of Japanese Verse: Images, Structure, Meter."

Here are some of Kawamoto's comments on 'kigo':

The use of old 'waka' words was therefore, not inconsistent with 'haikai's' effort to renovate traditional poetry. The reliance upon classical poetic diction does not mean that 'haiku' was a slave to long-standing conventions. On the contrary, the legitimacy of the 'haiku' as a full-fledged poetic genre was made possible by the existence of a poetic lexicon comprising thoroughly stereotyped expressions evolved over the course of a thousand-year old tradition. Within this tradition, the mere mention of a single word automatically translated into a specific complex of thoughts, emotions, and associations.

The class of words known as 'kigo' or seasonal words, provides the representative example of such poetic diction. .... However, it was not until after the maturing of 'renga' that ARTIFICIAL [emphasis mine] 'kigo' classifications systematically and inseparably yoked particular seasons to particular phenomenon---including those which are not (in reality) exclusive to a single season. In other words, it was through the discretionary rules of 'renga' that things like the moon, deer, and fog became inextricably linked to autumn.

... The justifications for these classifications derived from antecedent texts, particularly the dominant tendencies found in works that were widely regarded as superior poems. Here again, concern was not with reality, per se, but with a literary world---mostly poetic in nature---and the relative position of a word within a network of traditional literary expressions. It is true that large numbers of new 'kigo' were established during the age of 'haikai'. Yet even in these instances poets continued to apply the same fundamental crieteria. As a result, any newly established 'kigo' generally remained subject to strong regulating influences of the initial and therefore paradigmatic verses in which they first appeared---regardless of later changes in reality. [It is interesting to note here that, at least at the beginning of 'haikai', what was considered a 'kigo' was not set in stone---new 'kigo' could be added to the lists.]

[end of excerpt]


In my opinion, it's too bad that English-language poetry, from its beginnings in the British Isles, didn't develop a tradition in which poems, at least those that were about nature or used nature as image/metaphor, weren't classified by season and published in anthologies that way. There is also a bias in the English-language poetic tradition against using stereotyped phrases and expressions. So the best we can do in the English-language poetic tradition (of which ELH is, or should be, a part), in an effort to not totally disengage from the Japanese haiku tradition when writing ELH, is to use seasonal references in a way that hopefully gain resonance by repeated occurance in haiku of distinction, and also have resonance as those seasonal references may remind us of well-known poems in the English-language poetic tradition.

But it's obvious that 'seasonal references' will never have the same impact in ELH as 'kigo' has in Japanese haiku.

Larry Bole

Dear Don,

Some random observations:

Sturgeon's Revelation (Sturgeon's Law) states that "90% of everything is crud." This probably applies to haiku as much as anything else. I suspect that most every writer of ELH has written their fair share of bland haiku, and that in any given era of haiku writing, Japanese or English, the number of bland haiku far outweighs the number of interesting haiku. And I recognize the difference between a haiku that may personally appeal to me, but objectively is not that interesting in relation to other haiku on the same topic.

Can one avoid repetition in haiku?  If one looks at the 10,000 or so haiku of Issa that David Lanoue has now translated online (I hope I have the number correct), one finds that often Issa would write a haiku, and then write one, two or more haiku that are pretty much the same as the first one, with only minor and often insignificant differences.

It happens now and then that someone writes a haiku that is almost the same as a previously published haiku, without any knowledge of the previous one. I vaguely remember reading once that there is even a term for this in Japanese, although I can't remember what it is, and could be mistaken about that.

I recently wrote a haiku (kind of mediocre):

day after day
after day cherry blossoms
about to drop


This was written observing a stand-alone cherry tree in my city neighborhood, one on which the blossoms seemed to last forever or, at any rate, longer than one would expect.  And then I happened to be looking in Robin Gill's "Cherry Blossom Epiphany," and found these:

ippon no hikazu o tamesu sakura kana

counting the days
one tree stays in bloom:
it's cherry time!

Ginkou, 1778; trans. Gill

chiru made wa sono hi sono hi no sakura kana

until they drop
they are cherry blossoms
day after day

Shihan, 17c; trans. Gill


Oh well....

Maybe I can improve my haiku:

day after day
after day cherry blossoms
that should have fallen!

But as others have pointed out, one can notice a particular aspect of something that other people have seen but paid no attention to. Or find an interesting arrangement of words that are not quite the same as anyone else has used to describe a familiar scene or event.

Here is an example of two different haiku about cherry petals falling on food:

ki no moto ni shiru mo namasu mo sakura kana

Blossom Viewing

beneath a tree,
     both soup and fish salad:
          cherry blossoms!

Basho, trans. Barnhill


amenbo ni bettari tsukishi sakura kana

plastered
to the lollipop
cherry petals

Issa, 1824; trans. Gill


If I'm sitting with Basho picnicing under a cherry tree, I'm not sure I would want to eat the food so elegantly decorated by falling cherry petals. But l'm licking Issa's lollipop!  Yum! 

About Issa's haiku, Gill says:

I am no relativist. I prefer this to petals in dog bowls, on dog shit, bean paste, (itself identified with shit), garbage or avaricious faces. The 'ku', perhaps old Issa's last word on the subject, adds something the others lack. Cherry petals, to my mind at least, resemble little lips. Need more be said?

[end of excerpt]

We will never run out of interesting ways of saying things, if we cultivate what I call a haiku-mindset that, aware of what's been said before, strives to see things afresh. As Basho says in 'Oi no kobumi' (variously: Knapsack Notebook, Record of a Travel-worn Satchel, Notes in a Straw Satchel, etc.):

Nothing one sees is not a flower... (trans. Barnhill)

There is nothing you have in mind that cannot be turned into a flower...(trans. Ueda)

Anywhere a poet looks, there are flowers...(trans. Fumiko Yamamoto)


--Larry Bole

P.S. Regarding trying to say something new:

The Poets Agree to Be Quiet by the Swamp

They hold their hands over their mouths
And stare at the stretch of water.
What can be said has been said before:
Strokes of light like herons' legs in the cattails,
Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.
Therefore the poets may keep quiet.
But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.
They stick their elbows out into the evening,
Stoop, and begin the ancient croaking.

--David Wagoner

Hi Larry,

Yes, agreed, there's a lot of bland haiku, partly because writers don't stretch beyond a good draft into a finished haiku in my belief.  Many of us have been guilty. ;-)

re repetitions, there's various kinds, and it is traditional in Japanese haiku and pre-haiku to add allusions which is an altogether different thing of course.

One type of repetition was penned as deja-ku by Michael Dylan Welch:
http://sites.google.com/site/graceguts/essays/some-thoughts-on-deja-ku

all my best,

Alan

I want to take a second here and thank you all for your time, effort and comments.  You have created an incredibly interesting thread of which challenges minds and concepts for writing haiku in English.

I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts and participation very much.  Thank you!

best to you all,

Don

Quote from: chibi575 on May 09, 2011, 07:30:11 AM
Hi Lorin,

Why concern yourself with kigo if you're not writing haiku?

I have presented my approach (if it ain't Japanese... it ain't haiku)
ciao... chibi

Hi Dennis,
             My short answer is that I am writing haiku, EL haiku. Also I read haiku, both translations of Japanese haiku and EL haiku. Kigo is a fundamental issue. I believe that those of us who are writing and reading EL haiku need to know about kigo, to understand what it is and what it is not. My viewpoint regarding what is haiku and what is not is different to yours. Differences in outlook and opinion are to be expected in discussion between adults.

The reasons why I concerned myself with kigo in my previous post are simple:

1. Larry had posed a question.
2. This is the 'In Depth Haiku: Free Discussion Area' forum (some of us refer to it as the 'adult's' discussion forum)

My question to you in response to yours is, "Why concern yourself with an 'In Depth' discussion forum if you're not interested in or capable of entering into discussion?"

- Lorin

Quote from: Larry on May 09, 2011, 11:07:51 AM
Lorin, et al:

I stand corrected regarding 'kigo'. I just came across an essay by Richard Gilbert, "Kigo Versus Seasonal Reference in Haiku: Observations, Anecdotes and a Translation," in which he distinguishes between Japanese 'kigo' and Engish-language haiku (ELH) 'seasonal references'.

Gilbert points out that 'kigo' also has a cultural component for the Japanese, as well as a seasonal component, whereas 'seasonal references' don't necessarily have a cultural component for English-language haikuists.

I would, however, like to add that 'kigo' also has a 'literary tradition' component in addition to a cultural component for the Japanese. I base this opinion on a discussion of 'kigo' by Kooji Kawamoto in his book, "The Poetics of Japanese Verse: Images, Structure, Meter."

Here are some of Kawamoto's comments on 'kigo':

Larry Bole

Hi Larry,
            The reply function has disappeared here, and only the quote function remains!

Yes, the literary origins and basis of kigo are what allows kigo to be so richly allusive.

I'm also interested in renga/ renku, in English, another good reason to know about kigo. I'd say that in general, the majority of us writing haiku in English have only a 'rough-and-ready' concept of kigo. (and that includes me, though I've been pondering it and trying to understand more about it over the years)

One thing I'd like to know more about is the ho'ni (hon'i?), the designated (based on prior literature) 'essential meaning/ tone' of kigo, but I've not been able to find much. I'd be grateful if you or anyone could point me towards any discussions about this in English.

It is possible that something like 'native' kigo will evolve in EL haiku and renku, over time, but in relation to international EL haiku and renku the difficulties involved are that the EL world is not a monoculture: within the broad area of English Lit. there are works from England, America, Australia, South Africa etc.  This doesn't make it impossible; it makes the issues difficult, but interesting.

- Lorin

ah, found the 'reply' button... "hidden in broad daylight"  8) at the bottom of the page.

"Can one avoid repetition in haiku? " - Larry

...or even in poetry more generally?

I really enjoyed this poem that you posted, Larry:

'The Poets Agree to Be Quiet by the Swamp'

They hold their hands over their mouths
And stare at the stretch of water.
What can be said has been said before:
Strokes of light like herons' legs in the cattails,
Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.
Therefore the poets may keep quiet.
But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.
They stick their elbows out into the evening,
Stoop, and begin the ancient croaking.

--David Wagoner

Love it! It's an excellent poem! ... but I can't help but recall this ku of mine:

lily pond:
  another poet
  clears his throat             

- 3Lights gallery, senryu, April 2009

Had I read the David Wagoner poem prior to writing that ku, I doubt very much that I would have written it at all, let alone submit it anywhere for publication.

Michael Dylan Welch, in his essay 'Selected Examples of Deja-ku', gives these three examples of haiku for consideration re the possibility  of 'cryptomnesia', reading a haiku then forgetting it, so unintentionally plagiarising:


hot summer night—

the click of the dog's toenails

on the kitchen floor

               Michael Cecilione


distant thunder—

the dog's toenails click

against the linoleum

               Gary Hotham

snowed in

the dog clicks

from room to room

               Roberta Beary

I'd read two of these haiku before I'd seen them in the context of MDW's, and one of them reminded me very much of the closing lines of a poem I'd been familiar with for a long time:

" . . .and I suppose, if there'd been such things as tape-recorders and I'd taped them
the birds would be nice enough to go back to, now that they're safely past
– but I don't think I'd bother returning the apples and cheese
I'd pinched from the family fridge, or try to explain
why I sneaked out before dawn, tip-toeing ( boots in hand) past
the outsize dogs on the verandah you could hear through the winter nights
prowling inside the house, their claws click-clacking on lino... "


from - 'A Footnote to Kendall', Bruce Dawe, from -Sometimes Gladness – 5th edition, 1997

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Dawe

MDW is calling for examples of similar haiku only, and we all can't be expected to have read every poem in English. But his focus does seem to imply that it's only 'deja-ku' in haiku that's of interest.

- Lorin

Here are some links that may be of interest to the count down (clock ticking) on non-Japanese haiku-like poems:

http://www.dengary.com/essays/thenewshortlyricpoem.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20656790/Fire-Blossoms-the-Birth-of-Haiku-Noir-by-Denis-M-Garrison

Although, Denis' arguments are similar, they do not take in to account the language-culture-art in the same way I do.

Ciao... chibi

Quote from: Lorin on May 09, 2011, 04:10:27 PM

Michael Dylan Welch, in his essay 'Selected Examples of Deja-ku', gives these three examples of haiku for consideration re the possibility  of 'cryptomnesia', reading a haiku then forgetting it, so unintentionally plagiarising ...

- Lorin

The Deja-Ku is clearly one possibility.  The other is; due to the brevity of haiku and, therefore, the limited number of words that could ever apply, the possiblity of writing poems that are almost identical without having ever seen a matching one(s) is extremely possible considering the number of haiku written per day world-wide.  The math is there: the truth will follow. 

As long as we work with poems that are only 9-11 words (in English), we will be captured within the confine of possibility rather than the expansion.  That's the premise I've been pondering.

Just thinking a bit more ...

best,

Don

Don,

Sorry I can't quote from your most recent post, but I'm ignorant when it comes to using what all those icons represent at the top of the page. I will have to work that out sometime when I have more time.

But you mention limits and expansion possibilities when writing poems consisting of 9 to 11 words.

Well, one could start with determining how many permutations (in a mathematical sense) are available with 9 to 11 words. Then one can take into account that English has a vocabulary of approximately 100,000 words, which I have read is the largest vocabulary of any known language in the world. Although the total number of possible 9 to 11 word poems is still finite, it is possibly a huge number.

About the only restrictions I can think of are: 1) The limitations that are imposed by what one believes makes an ELH poem an ELH poem, if one wants to limit the composition of 9 to 11 word poems to that genre. 2) Poems being too similar in content and/or expresson (I believe this is your point). And although a one-word difference can make a difference, often it wouldn't. 3) Poems that would be nonsensical. Although, there is a genre of mainstream poetry, called "conceptual poetry," that includes some types of nonsensical poetry as legitimate poetry, as well as non-lexical vocalizations, and appropriation, which often consists of just re-producing someone else's text, but doing it by hand in some way, whether writing it out or typing it out.

Basho was a great appropriator. He occasionally spent some of his seventeen syllables quoting from Noh plays, for instance.

From what I remember of Basho's appropriations, the most extreme example would probably be this:

yo ni furu mo sarani Sogi no yadori kana

life in this world
just like a temporary shelter
of Sogi's

Basho, trans. Ueda


This is based on Sogi's haiku:

yo ni furu mo sarani shigure no yadori kana

life in this world
just like a temporary shelter
from a winter shower

Sogi, trans. Ueda


Basho has changed just one word in his haiku from Sogi's haiku. (note: Sogi should have a diacritical mark over the "o"; one can Romanize this as "Soogi," which has the same number of sound-syllables as "shigure".)


Larry Bole

Quote from: Larry on May 10, 2011, 12:35:20 PM
Basho was a great appropriator. He occasionally spent some of his seventeen syllables quoting from Noh plays, for instance.

From what I remember of Basho's appropriations, the most extreme example would probably be this:

yo ni furu mo sarani Sogi no yadori kana

life in this world
just like a temporary shelter
of Sogi's

Basho, trans. Ueda


This is based on Sogi's haiku:

yo ni furu mo sarani shigure no yadori kana

life in this world
just like a temporary shelter
from a winter shower

Sogi, trans. Ueda


Basho has changed just one word in his haiku from Sogi's haiku. (note: Sogi should have a diacritical mark over the "o"; one can Romanize this as "Soogi," which has the same number of sound-syllables as "shigure".)


Larry Bole

Hi Larry,

Interesting thought... Bashou the appropriator!  Thanks.

Ciao... chibi

Hello, Larry,

It's been a long time since I studied math, but if memory serves me correctly, the factorial of 11! would be 39,916,800 possible permutations.  That does not take into consideration the 100,000 words in English.

So it looks as if there is plenty of acreage in the haiku playground, at least in the foreseeable future.

cat

I wonder if this doesn't begin to prove the point (if there is one),

"I don't think lone is needed, as a cry of a crow suggests singular already."

"The use of lone and lonely as become somewhat a cliché in haiku, I must have read tens of thousands of haiku using one or the other.  I feel it's best to suggest loneliness without using the word directly." ~Alan


While there are possibly 100,000 words in our vocabulary there are only a small percentage of those that we can choose and use for haiku.  We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently.

If we're getting close to cliche regarding many of our words for use in haiku are we also on the brink of running out of options for writing such a genre?  The thought remains interesting to ponder.

best,

Don

Hi Don,

I don't think we are running out of word, or phrases. ;-)

English is rich enough for us to use concrete images to denote loneliness, even though a single cry etc... may have been used, just using the singlular of something could suggest we are alone with just one bird, flower etc...

I'm constantly surprised at the freshness of ELhaiku even though close to a million have possibly been composed so far. ;-)

Alan

If one's perception is fresh, the words will take care of themselves. Sometimes it's good to take off those haiku-colored glasses. 

Hi Peter,

I agree. 

Good writing is good writing and we must always strive to stay away from cliché and other traps.  It's often a misconception, whether haikai, short fiction, or other writing, that a well-known phrase or word strengthens a piece of writing. 

I feel good writing is where the writer is pushed forward, whether or not they realise they want to be stretched as readers.

Alan

Quote from: Peter Yovu on May 11, 2011, 12:46:44 PM
If one's perception is fresh, the words will take care of themselves. Sometimes it's good to take off those haiku-colored glasses. 

Haiku colored glasses... could I borrow yours?

Wouldn't that be a great way to see another's point of view?

8)

Quote from: Alan Summers on May 11, 2011, 12:38:45 PM
Hi Don,

I don't think we are running out of word, or phrases. ;-)

English is rich enough for us to use concrete images to denote loneliness, even though a single cry etc... may have been used, just using the singlular of something could suggest we are alone with just one bird, flower etc...

I'm constantly surprised at the freshness of ELhaiku even though close to a million have possibly been composed so far. ;-)

Alan

Personally, Alan, I agree ... but, it is an interesting question and one that deals directly with math ... which therefore, attracts my eye.  While this question being inherently one of poetry and therefore creativity, it is also one of math ... is the clock ticking on haiku?

I say no.  But, will poets 500 hunred years from now be able to say no?  I'm not looking short range here  (barring that we don't blow ourselves up before the question can be answered over time)!!!

best to you,

Don

Quote from: chibi575 on May 11, 2011, 01:21:40 PM
Haiku colored glasses... could I borrow yours?

Wouldn't that be a great way to see another's point of view?

8)

Chibi,

I'll take light green please!   8)

Quote from: Don Baird on May 11, 2011, 12:28:34 PM

While there are possibly 100,000 words in our vocabulary there are only a small percentage of those that we can choose and use for haiku.  We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently.

If we're getting close to cliche regarding many of our words for use in haiku are we also on the brink of running out of options for writing such a genre?  The thought remains interesting to ponder.

best,

Don

"We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently." - Don

So, what did Basho do? He kept changing the focus, or 'the rules' whenever things looked like becoming cliched. He expanded the topics that could be included in renga, he challenged the notions of what kind of language was acceptable, his 'haikai aesthetics' changed over time. (...leaving, it's true, every time he moved on, annoyed former disciples who wanted to hang on to his earlier positions and make them 'the rules'.  8)   )

- Lorin

Hi Don,

I wonder if haikai poets hundreds of years back wondered the same? ;-)

Haikai had added subject matter (always useful for increasing vocabulary) when rapid enforced industrialisation occurred.

Five hundred years from now we will have advanced technology and moonbases and Mars bases etc...  I don't think haiku will get exhausted somehow. ;-)


mars landing-
a tendril of red dust
shifts from a footfall


Publications credits:
tinywords (2007); Dylan Tweney, Practical Haiku (ebook 2010); Montage online July 19 (2010)


Alan

Quote from: Don Baird on May 11, 2011, 02:57:33 PM

Quote from: Alan Summers on May 11, 2011, 12:38:45 PM
Hi Don,

I don't think we are running out of word, or phrases. ;-)

English is rich enough for us to use concrete images to denote loneliness, even though a single cry etc... may have been used, just using the singlular of something could suggest we are alone with just one bird, flower etc...

I'm constantly surprised at the freshness of ELhaiku even though close to a million have possibly been composed so far. ;-)

Alan

Personally, Alan, I agree ... but, it is an interesting question and one that deals directly with math ... which therefore, attracts my eye.  While this question being inherently one of poetry and therefore creativity, it is also one of math ... is the clock ticking on haiku?

I say no.  But, will poets 500 hunred years from now be able to say no?  I'm not looking short range here  (barring that we don't blow ourselves up before the question can be answered over time)!!!

best to you,

Don

Bashou a bad boy? Bashou the appropriator!  

Do you know of the speculation that Bashou was an imperial spy?  Traveling the provences of mainland Japan, gathering info.  As the story goes, he was actually poisoned on his last return trip from the interior as he was discovered.  Then there are stories of his alternative life-style, didn't get married, traveled with a male companion.  I was told these stories while I was in Japan. Has anyone else heard of these?

Example:
http://herohirop5.exblog.jp/5395333/

But the stories told me were in 2002 and 2003, some by poets others by new friends I met in Japan.

I think it was stories built on stories, but, Bashou did die mysteriously or at least there was some mystery surrounding his death from food poisoning.

No doubt he has gone down in history more as a haijin rather than a ninja.

;D

The book that came out because of the big celebration had an essay to suggest he was very clever in making his bosses think he was doing spying and propaganda for them.

In fact he praised the agrarian society in subtle ways which fooled the people who wanted to conquer them.

Maybe he was poisoned, or maybe it was just bad food which would have been possible.  But if some of the bigwigs had discovered he was making a fool of them and protecting the farming classes, there could have been revenge.

There is still not enough research into Basho the person, I long for more academic work done on this intriguing person.

Alan

Quote from: chibi575 on May 11, 2011, 06:07:47 PM
Bashou a bad boy? Bashou the appropriator!  

Do you know of the speculation that Bashou was an imperial spy?  Traveling the provences of mainland Japan, gathering info.  As the story goes, he was actually poisoned on his last return trip from the interior as he was discovered.  Then there are stories of his alternative life-style, didn't get married, traveled with a male companion.  I was told these stories while I was in Japan. Has anyone else heard of these?

Example:
http://herohirop5.exblog.jp/5395333/

But the stories told me were in 2002 and 2003, some by poets others by new friends I met in Japan.

I think it was stories built on stories, but, Bashou did die mysteriously or at least there was some mystery surrounding his death from food poisoning.

No doubt he has gone down in history more as a haijin rather than a ninja.

;D

Basho's trip to Oku has been part of a TV movie series, with Sora being the ninja spy ... and old Basho writing cryptical haiku messages ...
His "alternative lifestyle" is known of course.
And food poisoning was quite common in these days without refrigerator, as was poisoning of enemies ...

Sorry, no time to indulge in more details right now.
Gabi

Quote from: Lorin on May 11, 2011, 05:18:17 PM

Quote from: Don Baird on May 11, 2011, 12:28:34 PM

While there are possibly 100,000 words in our vocabulary there are only a small percentage of those that we can choose and use for haiku.  We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently.

If we're getting close to cliche regarding many of our words for use in haiku are we also on the brink of running out of options for writing such a genre?  The thought remains interesting to ponder.

best,

Don

"We are greatly limited in words through the confines of historical structure and form demand.  I think this may have been what was frustrating Basho of which he made clear in a few of his quips/comments, apparently." - Don

So, what did Basho do? He kept changing the focus, or 'the rules' whenever things looked like becoming cliched. He expanded the topics that could be included in renga, he challenged the notions of what kind of language was acceptable, his 'haikai aesthetics' changed over time. (...leaving, it's true, every time he moved on, annoyed former disciples who wanted to hang on to his earlier positions and make them 'the rules'.  8)   )

- Lorin

"He kept changing focus, or the rules ... his haikai aesthetics, etc..." ~Lorin

As we may have to as well.  Thanks Lorin.  A solid point taken.

Don

Dear Lorin,

Perhaps we should take this conversation off this thread, but I greatly enjoyed reading your very fine haiku:

lily pond:
  another poet
  clears his throat             

- 3Lights gallery, senryu, April 2009


I think this haiku and David Wagoner's poem complement each other.  One doesn't supercede the other. Although Wagoner's poem is relatively short, the brevity of your haiku gives it a delightful light-heartedness that is not as evident in Wagoner's poem, and yet your haiku is equally profound in its own way.

Playing Kikaku to your Basho for a moment, did you toy with the idea of using an alternate first line, such as 'the old pond', or 'frog pond'?

And I wouldn't call your haiku a 'senryu' either. Water lily ('suiren') is a kigo for late summer. And the fact that there is humor in your poem doesn't preclude its being a haiku. Haiku can be humorous.

Regarding 'hon'i' ('poetic essence'), of course one can find a lot of stuff about this online. Not knowing what you are familiar with already, here are some books with interesting discussion about this:

Yasuda, The Japanese Haiku, Ch. V, "Historical View", section 2, "Seasonal Element" (pp. 161, 162 in First Tut Book ed., 1973.).

Miner, Japanese Linked Poetry, Part One, "Linked Poetry...", section 6, "Some Canons of Renga" (pp. 81-85 in First Princeton paperback, 1980.).

Shirane, Traces of Dreams, see under "Poetic essence" in the General Index, various pp. (Stanford U. Press, 1998.).

Kawamoto, The Poetics of Japanese Verse, ch. 2, "The Poetics of the Haiku", in the section, "The Expressive Capacity of Seventeen Syllables", pp. 60, 61 (English translation, U. of Tokyo Press, 2000)

Here is some of what Kawamoto has to say on the subject of 'hon'i':

'Hon'i' is usually explained as the essential qualities inherent in an object and the emotional response deemed appropriate. However, as seen in Chapter 1 ["Autumn Dusk"], the actual qualities of the phenomenon itself were second to the conceptual qualities acquired through literary precedent. ... there may have been autumn dusks for centuries in Japan, but no one saw them until the age of the 'Shinkokinshuu' (ca. 1210), when the theme of autumn evenings began to attract a markedly strong interest. After the composition of several masterpieces using such set phrases as 'aki no yuube' [autumn evening] and 'aki no yuugare' [autumn dusk], the association between the phenomenon and the 'hon'i' of sadness first became fixed. When a 'waka' word achieves recognition as a suitable topic, its 'hon'i' is established and its not the thing itself but the precise word or phrase that determines its implications. Judgments at the 'uta-awase' poetry matches, for example, frequently centered on the 'hon'i' or legitimate meaning of the topic and not the object itself.

[end of excerpt]


In Ch. 1, alluded to in the above excerpt, Kawamoto discusses the apparently well-known example of Kyorai's criticism [in 'Kyorai-shoo', Kyorai's Notes, 1702-4] of a haiku by Fuukoku, about which Fuukoku is quoted as saying, "Recently, when I heard the sound of a temple bell in the mountain at dusk, I didn't feel at all forlorn."  So Fuukoku wrote a haiku saying as much. Kyorai's criticism is that one can't ignore the 'hon'i' of a mountain temple, autumn dusk, and a bell at dusk [all apparently mentioned in the original haiku, now apparently lost] which is of forlornness. So the haiku was re-written as:

yuugure wa kane o chikara ya tera no aki

At dusk,
how uplifting the bell!
Autumn at a temple.

--trans. Collington, Collins, Heldt

Kawamoto goes on to say:

Indeed, this poem manages to incorporate the "essential implications" of autumn dusk as the epitome of forlornness by preserving a hint of melancholy, while suggesting that the powerful reverberations of the bell raise the speaker's spirit. ...

While Kyorai's critique may seem extreme, it has been a given in Japan for centuries that the only appropriate sentiment in connection with "autumn dusk" is that of forlornness.

[end of excerpt]


Shirane also discusses this haiku of Fuukoku's, and Kyorai's criticism, in Traces of Dreams, in ch. 7, "Seasonal Associations and Cultural Landscape," pp. 204-5.

Here is Shirane's translation of the haiku:

yuugure / wa / kane / o / chikara / ya / tera / no / aki
dusk / as-for / temple-bell / (acc.) / strength / : / temple / 's / autumn

the sound of the bell at dusk
gives me strength--
a temple in autumn

--trans. Shirane

According to Shirane, it was Kyorai who re-wrote the haiku.  In a footnote  to Ch. 7 (footnote 24.), Shirane says:

Kyorai's corrected version suggests that with the approach of evening, the noisy crowds have left the temple and the poet is left with a feeling of loneliness, which is diminished or obscured by the sound of the evening temple bells, which give him emotional strength.

[end of excerpt]


Larry Bole

P.S. The next time I have a chance to go to the New York Public Library, I will check for other discussions of 'hon'i' in books that might be there, and let you know by email, if that is ok.

Hi Larry,
         Many thanks for all this. Happy to know that my ku complements rather than echoes the David Wagoner poem in a 'deja ku' way. Yes, it did begin, in draft form, with 'frog pond' and old pond', but then I thought that the allusion to 'frog in the throat' might be enough to suggest frogs, as well as poets, who, as David Wagoner so humorously gives it, just can't remain silent.  :D  ah..the 'senryu' tag; it was just that it appeared in a 3Lights issue that was titled 'Senryu'. I agree that haiku can and often does have humour.

The background of that ku is that there used to be an annual 'poets picnic' at an historical artists' colony up in the hills near Melbourne, Montsalvat. There is also a lily pond, complete with frogs. . . and peacocks strutting around (the real birds). My 'peacock' haiku/ senryu on the occasion went down well with the women poets in the audience, but not the men, btw. I changed 'frog pond/ old pond' to 'lily pond' with a colon, considering Nick Virgilio's 'lily:' haiku and the discussions of it, as well.

Re: hon'i/ 'true intention'/ 'essential meaning': thank you indeed for the references you give. I first came across the existence of this most pertinent fact about kigo in that piece by Richard Gilbert you quoted from in an earlier post, in 2005.

"There is a measure of covenant in the season word. This covenant can be described as one's true intention or true sensibility. For example, considering "spring wind" (haru kaze): there is a word, shunpûtaitô (from the Chinese: "wind blowing mild and genial") which can be applied to human character.

It is made of four kanji characters: haru (spring) and kaze (wind) plus the compound (taitô), meaning calm, quiet, peaceful wind.

It is a true intention of the spring wind.

The true intention is a tradition of the spring wind used by the waka, the Chinese poem, and the haiku, etc.

So, the single (kigo) word is a distillation wrought by tradition representing the true intention of kigo. The Saijiki (kigo glossary) elucidates (glosses) the true intentions of such words.

In a nutshell, the expression such as "lonely spring breeze" (sabishii haru kaze) does not exist as kigo.

What? . . ."

- Tsubouchi Nenten; translator – Richard Gilbert

http://www.simplyhaiku.com/SHv3n3/features/rGilbert-kigoSeasons_js.html

That was me saying 'what?!!!" along with Tsubouchi Nenten's perfectly timed expression of it in that essay. That's when the penny dropped for me, when I first realized that we've adopted (Japanese) kigo shallowly, though there's no blame attached, since the existence of these hon'i has been mostly only hinted at in the available literature.

I also realized that when we use the term kigo to denote our local, Western season words and references we're not taking into account the tradition of hon'i/ 'essential meaning'/' true intention'.
'Wattle Day', eg. might give a date and have some (much debated, over the years) cultural and political background still clinging to it, but I'd be barking up the wrong tree if I thought that 'Wattle Day' had an 'essential meaning' derived from prior literature and implicitly agreed upon by Australian poets, except perhaps that it's a symbol of how differently Australians arrive at an official public celebration day than do the Japanese, and how differently & variously they regard it after its official establishment. 

Also, how many kigo (Japanese) are there today, collected in saijiki? What is the hon'i for 'air conditioner' ?

More recently, on discovering that 'ants out of a hole' is a kigo for Spring and has the hon'i/'true intention'/ 'essential meaning' of 'the joy of Spring', I realized that even a Japanese person composing haiku, considering that there are now thousands of kigo, would need a reference book, a saijiki which listed the hon'i along with the kigo. Yet, as far as I know, there are no EL translations of this kind of saijiki , and the collections of EL 'kigo' I can find online make no reference to 'essential meaning'/ 'true intention'.

What is a kigo without a hon'i? I'd say that it was possibly a keyword or a seasonal reference. Yet in EL haiku, complete beginners are being encouraged to compile saijiki in which they list their local kigo. It strikes me as rather a cart-before-the-horse situation.

Kooji Kawamoto's comments that you quoted (over your two posts on the subject) also confirm my sense of kigo-including-hon'i as something that we need to understand better.

Thanks very much for your generous response, Larry, and I'd be happy to take further discussion of this into emails rather than further hijack Don's thread here. (my apologies, Don, but this is an area that raises many questions for me)

My email address can be found under 'Lorin Ford' in the THF Haiku Registry pages.

- Lorin

Lorin: " ... That's when the penny dropped for me, ..."

Lorin, I like this expression.  It is new to me, but, I instantly like it.  There is folklore associated with finding a penny:  heads-up (in the penny of the USA that has President Lincoln's bust on one side) usually means good luck is coming your way; but, heads-down meant the opposite.  Then there is the expression, "A penny saved is a penny earned".  I suppose a dropped penny may be inconflict with a saved penny?!

As to words and phrases associated with nature and seasonal shifts, I support seeking the deepness in experiences as may be found in a saijiki.  Sometimes, exploring these can give insight and open up the word or phrase to ones personal moment.  In a way, I've always looked at the saijiki (or equivalent) as opening more interpretation rather than a restrictive codex as sometimes it is interpreted.


Ciao... chibi

Hi Dennis... do you have a saijiki which gives the hon'i (true intention, essential meaning) along with the various kigo?

Can you tell me what the hon'i is for 'air conditioner', for instance?

And, are these saijiki you consult in English?

Even the American Yuki Teiki Haiku Society calls their reference page the 'Yuki Teiki Haiku Season Word List', which is correct, since there are no hon'i given along with the words on the list, let alone examples of prior poems.

ah... 'the penny drops' ...I think it originated in the days when you had to put a penny in the provided slot to eg. see a bit of silent film footage at a sideshow,  or here in Melbourne, before decimal currency was introduced, to gain access to clean public toilets. 'The penny drops, the light goes on...'

. . .and if the penny didn't drop but got stuck, one remained in the dark or the door to the toilet remained shut. There was always that moment of suspense after putting the coin in, waiting to hear it drop.   (Ladies used the expression 'spend a penny', too, instead of referring to bodily functions, even when the facilities were free.  :)... is that too much information, I wonder? But the origin of common expressions is interesting. I was educated about 'heads up' and a few other American expressions by a fellow haiku writer of my acquaintance.

- Lorin

Modified: added last par. , for clarity.

Here is the closest reference that as near a saijiki as that I know.

http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2010/05/air-conditioning-reiboo.html

As to a the essential meaning... well, air conditioner technology has an interesting history, that, can be found by google.  In a way, "google" might be considered a path to essential meaning. 

I am not sure an essential meaning might be applied to air conditioner.  If you want to get an idea of the process of what can go into the Japanese saijiki, one might google that too.  I know it is similar in a way to what goes in and comes out of dictionaries and encyclopedeas.

Thanks for explaining the "penny drop".

Ciao... Chibi

Hi Lorin and all,

No worry.  I love the organic aspect of this thread.  There are lots of interesting topics coming out of it. I'm sure we'll come back around to the main topic, if needed.  :) 

take care,

Don

Hi Don,

With the interest (and lack of interest) in a type of world wide saijiki, the clock may be winding up on local and regional kigo?  But, maybe kigo is not the tick or tock in the clock?  Are we not on topic to discuss such?  Jus wondering? 

An interesting aspect of a broken analog clock (a mechanical clock with hour and minute hands) even when it is without a tick or tock it is correct twice a day!!  Hmmm... is this an antipole of the ticking clock on haiku?  I guess it is how one measures "accuracy", eh?

;D

Don asked:
The death of haiku:  is it imminent due to lack of kigo and new words? 

I hope we are still proving that we haven't used up our words to create new meaningful haiku that could also be considered literature?

As to kigo, I don't think there is a lack of interest in local/regional kigo, either in Japan or elsewhere.

Unfortunately where there may be a chance to increase development in regional Japanese kigo, there is resistance, even odd aggression against non-Japanese writers to collect and use local words and phrases that can be in time be considered Western kigo.

The more this resistance to surely an amazing opportunity in non-Japanese haiku continues it will be successful in making sure it never occurs.

Writers, hopefully, will work round the strangeness of resistance to developing this fact.

Gabi's kigo database helps prove there is a constant wave of people and examples that there can be a chance for non-Japanese kigo to develop over time.  What an amazing thing it could be that if we look back after 30-50 years (not us as individuals of course) that we could be on track.

Alan

Quote from: chibi575 on May 16, 2011, 08:07:32 AM
Hi Don,

With the interest (and lack of interest) in a type of world wide saijiki, the clock may be winding up on local and regional kigo?  But, maybe kigo is not the tick or tock in the clock?  Are we not on topic to discuss such?  Jus wondering? 

An interesting aspect of a broken analog clock (a mechanical clock with hour and minute hands) even when it is without a tick or tock it is correct twice a day!!  Hmmm... is this an antipole of the ticking clock on haiku?  I guess it is how one measures "accuracy", eh?

;D

Alan,

I agree with your comment; but, I may have given you a mixed signal with the phrase "winding up" as in winding up a clock means winding up the spring in the clock.  Not sure, but, sometimes a phrase across the pond can be different than over here... like "knocking up" has a totally different meaning there than here.   :D

Of course, "winding up" has several interpretations depending on the context in which it is used.  The baseball pitcher is "winding up" to throw, the inning is winding up (coming to an end) same as winding down, depends on the context, again, I may be winding up with egg on my face, (another example).

So we're on the same page... I believe the WKD has certainly contributed to increasing the interest in haiku, in effect, winding up the spring on the haiku clock so there will be even more "tick/tocks" on the haiku clock.

Winding down my discussion on winding up... tick tock alligator!


Cheers... Chibi

Hi Dennis! ;-)


You said:
With the interest (and lack of interest) in a type of world wide saijiki, the clock may be winding up on local and regional kigo?  But, maybe kigo is not the tick or tock in the clock?  Are we not on topic to discuss such?  Jus wondering? 

Followed by:

Quote from: chibi575 on May 16, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
Alan,

I agree with your comment; but, I may have given you a mixed signal with the phrase "winding up" as in winding up a clock means winding up the spring in the clock.  Not sure, but, sometimes a phrase across the pond can be different than over here... like "knocking up" has a totally different meaning there than here.   :D

Of course, "winding up" has several interpretations depending on the context in which it is used.  The baseball pitcher is "winding up" to throw, the inning is winding up (coming to an end) same as winding down, depends on the context, again, I may be winding up with egg on my face, (another example).

So we're on the same page... I believe the WKD has certainly contributed to increasing the interest in haiku, in effect, winding up the spring on the haiku clock so there will be even more "tick/tocks" on the haiku clock.

Winding down my discussion on winding up... tick tock alligator!


Cheers... Chibi

I'm glad I got you wrong and you were saying the opposite, but at least it got a response. ;-)

Interestingly, does English have more double meanings than other languages, both Japanese/Chinese and Romance languages etc...

Differences in meanings across the Pond are well known, but even from one English town to another English town meanings can be different.  There'll always be different interpretations.  I never thought the day when sick meant good for instance. ;-)

In fact you've made me think that regional saijiki have more importance than I had previously thought.  I hope resistance to this idea quietens down because on a language level they are important, and will eventually over decades become vital social documents in their own right as well as contribute to an authentic Japanese saijiki level at some point in the future, be that far away or not.

But it won't be far away for those in the future if we start now. ;-)

Alan

QuoteAs to kigo, I don't think there is a lack of interest in local/regional kigo, either in Japan or elsewhere.

Unfortunately where there may be a chance to increase development in regional Japanese kigo, there is resistance, even odd aggression against non-Japanese writers to collect and use local words and phrases that can be in time be considered Western kigo.

The more this resistance to surely an amazing opportunity in non-Japanese haiku continues it will be successful in making sure it never occurs.

Writers, hopefully, will work round the strangeness of resistance to developing this fact.

Gabi's kigo database helps prove there is a constant wave of people and examples that there can be a chance for non-Japanese kigo to develop over time.  What an amazing thing it could be that if we look back after 30-50 years (not us as individuals of course) that we could be on track.

Alan

Thanks for taking up worldwide kigo collecting ... maybe the THF could start a useful project?
New kigo are coming up in Japan every season, this year it might be

setsuden　節電 saving energy

New season words for other regions of the world should be sprouting too ...  taking ELH  a big step further, enriching its potential, widening the path for allusions ... enriching haiku in all aspects of cultural context.

Gabi

Hi Alan,

The following is a quote from you on another thread; it represents my pondering very well and is at the root of my inquiry with this current thread.  Your comment is:

"Good points John, but I have an aversion to silent and silence. ;-)  They are now overused in haiku, I've thousands and thousands using those two words and variations on it.

...etc (text removed by me (Don) as it isn't necessary in regards to this chat)

Alan

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/mentoring-beginner/wind-chimes/


With the thought that haiku are very short (at 11 words or so) and that we are already reaching a point of redundancy, I wonder how long it will be before we reach a place where we cannot write a fresh haiku without including words now "over-used".  Considering that there are currently a large number of words/phrases already on the cliche list, are we on the verge of losing the freshness of language in haiku?  Is it going to be impossible in the nearing future to write original haiku without drastically changing its shape and/or rules?  Is the clock ticking on ELH, actually?

Just pondering ... and I'm still writing, hopefully, new and fresh haiku.

Don

Hi Don,

you said:

Quote from: Don Baird on May 16, 2011, 09:06:15 PM
Hi Alan,

The following is a quote from you on another thread; it represents my pondering very well and is at the root of my inquiry with this current thread.  Your comment is:

"Good points John, but I have an aversion to silent and silence. ;-)  They are now overused in haiku, I've thousands and thousands using those two words and variations on it.

...etc (text removed by me (Don) as it isn't necessary in regards to this chat)

Alan

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/mentoring-beginner/wind-chimes/


With the thought that haiku are very short (at 11 words or so) and that we are already reaching a point of redundancy, I wonder how long it will be before we reach a place where we cannot write a fresh haiku without including words now "over-used".  Considering that there are currently a large number of words/phrases already on the cliche list, are we on the verge of losing the freshness of language in haiku?  Is it going to be impossible in the nearing future to write original haiku without drastically changing its shape and/or rules?  Is the clock ticking on ELH, actually?

Just pondering ... and I'm still writing, hopefully, new and fresh haiku.

Don

I should have typed that I have read thousands and thousands, not written them.  This is why typos are such a bugbear with me, even when I'm a culprit. ;-)

Haiku is no different from other poetry: we can choose to be unimaginative, used regularly used words and phrases thinking a cliché is a clever shortcut for the reader.

Or we can strive to bring something fresh to the pot.

The clock is always ticking in one manner or another.  Poetry has been regularly named dead or terminal by the Press, and inbetween it's been called the new Rock n' Roll. ;-)  When Murray Lachlan Young got a million pound contract as a poet a lot of people thought this was poetry's chance to hit the mainstream once again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4606658.stm

I'm always surprised when a big personality comes along and revitalises the form itself, or revitalises its popularity.  I remember thinking music was dead back in the 70s and then hearing the Sex Pistols off someone's walkman at a train station and getting excited.  This was when I was in security training and had become conservative. ;-)  Lady Gaga does it again for music which was getting tired and formulaic, at least in the mainstream.

Paul Reps did it for haiku years ago, and Nick Virgilio was on the verge of becoming a huge national TV and radio star (and was already a big name).  We get Paul Muldoon and Seamus Heaney trying it with haiku, but it fails.  Especially Paul Muldoon who over-clevers haiku to the extent that even he can't call it haiku anymore, despite being published by Modern Haiku.

The clock is always ticking, but haiku has its strength in always being transmedia so it is unlikely it will die off.  Even the current Japanese haiku writer poet-in-residence in France is thinking of using txt message haiku (but without the txt slang) for people in Japan.

Gabi mentions new kigo are constantly going into saijiki in Japan such as energy saving. I've said somewhere else, new technology will create new images in haiku, and this happened back in Japan's enforced rapid industrialisation.

It's why I get frustrated when I see Victorianesque poesie forced into supposed haiku constructs, and it's those that get seen by the public and the literary world at large.

I only have to read Helen Buckingham's haiku and senryu to know good hardworking writers are still producing remarkably fresh and thoughtful work that resonante hours and days beyond their reading:
http://area17.blogspot.com/2010/06/water-on-moon-haiku-collection-by-helen.html

I am amazed that this Touchstone shortlisted collection didn't make it to the final selection.  When people, both poets and the public buy it, they come back to buy more copies because friends and families need to  read it.

I've supported a wider appreciation of haiku for nearly twenty years, and have probably interacted with poets and public in their tens of thousands by now.  Just as a clock always technically ticks and tocks, so will haiku.

Alan

NHK television has a regular haiku program every week.
There is one kigo given each week and more than a few thousend people send their haiku with this kigo. They are published in the NHK magazine ... and everyone enjoys reading it.

There are no clichees with kigo, but there has to be a new angle around it, a new aspect, new situation, fresh moment, a new LIFE around the old kigo.
This is where the poet has to show his mettle (do you use this expression in English?) .

Gabi
(just back online after a blackout after a strong thunderstorm ...)

Hi Gabi,

I think I agree that there is no cliché as such with a kigo itself, although we can't interpret what every Japanese, and every non-Japanese person will experience when reading just the kigo on its own.

A poet does indeed need to prove their mettle (haven't heard that expression for years <grin>, and I would have thought that was the only way to prevent the kigo from falling into either disuse or cliché.

This is what is good about the Vancouver Cherry Blossom Haiku Competition, because the demand is for freshness in a haiku about cherry blossom. ;-)

Alan

Quote from: Gabi Greve on May 17, 2011, 03:46:03 AM
NHK television has a regular haiku program every week.
There is one kigo given each week and more than a few thousend people send their haiku with this kigo. They are published in the NHK magazine ... and everyone enjoys reading it.

There are no clichees with kigo, but there has to be a new angle around it, a new aspect, new situation, fresh moment, a new LIFE around the old kigo.
This is where the poet has to show his mettle (do you use this expression in English?) .

Gabi
(just back online after a blackout after a strong thunderstorm ...)

ticktockticktockticktock... an MP3 audio download

Alan and Gabi... good reads both, forever thankful for your replies.  Not to slight the other active membership... thankful for the activity, always.

There is an battery powered geared clock on the wall in our rented condo.  At night, a little after two in the morning, (after the two closeby bars close) the downstairs is quiet except for the tick-tock-tick-tock of that clock.  If sleep evades me, occasionaly, I will slip downstairs and accompany that clock's metronomic beat, with the creak rick-rock of a wicker rocking chair.  As sleep steals away the rocker's sway, my snores soon replace the wicker rocker's creak.

in a dream...
an apps sensitive to sway
produces birdsongs

::)

Love the prose and haiku.  Is this an iPhone apps?  I know a haiku writer shouldn't be without one, but I didn't figure you'd be twice double cool by having one too.

Thanks for the praise re the comments, I won't take it an ego way, but as gentle encouragement to continue on a long but forever interesting kigo path.

The more I hear about kigo the more it needs to stay essential in both Japanese and non-Japanese haiku, but I can understand why many Japanese writers are not happy with kigo.

I think it has come close to control freakism and cliché, and we need constructive kigo rebels to keep it from degenerating in use and understanding.

Alan

.
first picked tea -
the geiger counter keeps ticking
and ticking

http://japan-afterthebigearthquake.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-17-tuesday.html

te hajime 手始（てはじめ）first picking (of tea leaves)
ichibancha 一番茶（いちばんちゃ）first picked tea
nibancha 二番茶（にばんちゃ）second picked tea
sanbancha 三番茶（さんばんちゃ）third picked tea
yobancha 四番茶（よばんちゃ）fourth picked tea

and more kigo
http://haikuandhappiness.blogspot.com/2008/05/fresh-tea.html

Gabi

Quote from: chibi575 on May 15, 2011, 10:16:20 AM


As to words and phrases associated with nature and seasonal shifts, I support seeking the deepness in experiences as may be found in a saijiki.  Sometimes, exploring these can give insight and open up the word or phrase to ones personal moment.  In a way, I've always looked at the saijiki (or equivalent) as opening more interpretation rather than a restrictive codex as sometimes it is interpreted.


Ciao... chibi

Dennis, your point here about 'seeking deepness' is on the same page, is connected to, my concern that in EL haiku we are using, for the most part, kigo ( Japanese) that we don't truly understand.  There is no blame in this lack of understanding, since what appears to be the essential part of kigo, the hon'i ( 'legitimate meaning' in Kawamoto's terminology) has not been widely discussed in English. Though the real saijiki (Japanese) has, I believe, references which make the hon'i of each kigo clear, there are no EL translations of these real saijiki.

The result is that we don't actually use kigo (those we inherit from the Japanese) as such, but as seasonal references. When we attempt to make our own regional 'saijiki' we may be listing what happens when in our locality but such 'kigo' do not have the heart of true kigo: that is, the depth of the shared cultural meaning.

I've been thinking about what seem to me to be odd responses to my various posts on the subject of kigo vs EL season word/ reference and I feel that my concerns have been reacted to rather than considered and understood. I am not against kigo. I am aware that my understanding of kigo is shallow, and I'm aware that I'm certainly not alone in that. I look forward to the day when I'll have the opportunity to deepen my understanding. Until then, since the resources are not available, I am against the gung-ho attitude that inspires people to gloss over the fact of the hon'i (essential meaning, legitimate meaning, true intention) in Japanese haiku. I have nothing against new lists of 'season words/ seasonal references' in English (what happens when, where; information about)...they are useful. But calling such lists 'saijiki' only serves to cover up the fact that there is something essential to our understanding of kigo missing, and to perpetuate our naive use of seasonal references as if they were kigo. If we are not using kigo as kigo in EL haiku (and it is only by chance or by intuition that the majority of us sometimes do) then we should be aware of this.

EL 'kigo' is very much a case of the Emperor parading around naked, thinking he's wearing fine new clothes.

""The death of haiku:  is it imminent due to lack of kigo and new words?" – Don

I don't see the immanent 'death of haiku', Don. I believe that we have barely scratched the surface in EL haiku. A better and deeper understanding of kigo would be one thing, I believe,that would open new opportunities and challenges for EL haiku. But we need the co-operation of translators from the Japanese for that. I see no use in longer and longer lists of kigo without the essential information about hon'i included.

"Or we can strive to bring something fresh to the pot." - Alan

Yes, I believe that innovations of various kinds are possible in EL haiku, but that a better understanding of kigo would in itself open fresh and challenging fields for EL haiku as well as provide a foundation for the possible development of something like a EL counterpart of saijiki.


- Lorin

Nice post Gabi,

I wonder what will come out of the, what I call quintuple, disasters that Japan faced, and are still facing?

As Croatian people used haiku to vividly portray the inhumanness of internecine warfare, what will be the new wave of haiku relating to the disasters in Japan?

Kuniharu is also showing some good material, and new ways of using kigo from Japan will only add to our possible use of kigo in the West.  Even if that takes 30, 50, 80 years or more.

After all, at some point in kigo history, pre-kigo, someone, and a small group of someones, started off what wasn't kigo, but became the system we now see.

Also, the New Wave haiku writers who rebel against kigo, and that hasn't really been discussed enough yet, will show that kigo has possibly been over-centralised in Japan maybe?

And the New Wave haiku writers who do use kigo but are trying maybe to make it more applicable to contemporary society?  That was the contemporary society pre earthquake/tsunami/radiation/powercuts/break down/increased distrust in politicians and top bureaucrats/trade/shift in culture with young school girls and those who have just left school/youth in general?

So much will change.  Who is now the haiku writers to watch, both young and upcoming, the new voice, and the established ones that get down and dirty and capture what's happening at ground roots?

Alan

Quote from: Gabi Greve on May 17, 2011, 04:58:55 PM
.
first picked tea -
the geiger counter keeps ticking
and ticking

http://japan-afterthebigearthquake.blogspot.com/2011/05/may-17-tuesday.html

te hajime 手始（てはじめ）first picking (of tea leaves)
ichibancha 一番茶（いちばんちゃ）first picked tea
nibancha 二番茶（にばんちゃ）second picked tea
sanbancha 三番茶（さんばんちゃ）third picked tea
yobancha 四番茶（よばんちゃ）fourth picked tea

and more kigo
http://haikuandhappiness.blogspot.com/2008/05/fresh-tea.html

Gabi

The interplay and information/ideas within this thread is very interesting and informative.  The subject of EL Kigo would be another fantastic thread just on its own - where Japanese kigo could be compared with EL Kigo as to the differences, if any, in contemporary times. And, would a EL Saijiki (complete hon'i) help us out?

I view kigo as an expansion; it's far more than a season word.  I see it as a indicator, like the tip of an iceberg with so much more in the resonance that will surface with greater pondering and understanding.  It's a word of wealth; of abundance.  It's an inclusive word rather than exclusive.  And, it resonates beyond the ink on a page into the realm of raw thought, memory, association, and vivid images.

I wonder Gabi, if you would like to start a new post called something like Japanese Kigo and Its English Language Counterpart.  Something along that line?  Just thinking out loud. It could be a wonderful exploration of the qualities of kigo and how we can relate them to EL Haiku in the most traditional way possible.

"I don't see the immanent 'death of haiku', Don. I believe that we have barely scratched the surface in EL haiku. A better and deeper understanding of kigo would be one thing, I believe,that would open new opportunities and challenges for EL haiku. But we need the co-operation of translators from the Japanese for that. I see no use in longer and longer lists of kigo without the essential information about hon'i included." lorin

I agree fully, Lorin ... and yet wonder at the same time - "is the clock ticking and will we have to change haiku in English radically to keep up with the tick"?  And, if we don't, will EL Haiku become cliche in general.  Yet, if we change it radically, will what we write still be EL Haiku? Or will it, as chibi mentions from time to time, be a simple short poem.  

Are all EL Haiku cliche?  Is S/L/S already outdated?  Was it ever in?  Is the phrase and frag theory already gone and useless?  Is the basic form of EL Haiku already cliche?  Is that why there are so many people writing non-conforming structure EL Haiku and pressing the very limits of Haiku as a poem structure.  Will there be a traditional structure for haiku in ten years (in EL)?  Or is it already on its way out the door?

Just pondering a bit tonight.

Don

Or is it already on its way out the door?
Don

As I see it, traditional haiku is out of the EL door, but a lot of interesting short poetry is coming in at the other side of the corridor.

(No time for longer discussions right now, sorry.
The clock of radioactivity is ticking in Japan.)

Gabi

radioactive grass
on the pastures of Fukushima -
go kill the horses

.
http://omamorifromjapan.blogspot.com/2011/07/koma-horses-fukushima.html

.

A few quotes from The Matsuyama Declaration  of 12 September, 1999

Haiku is grasped with all 5 senses, not by logic. Things which logic could not explain might be expressed in haiku. In order to jump over the gap between logic and the senses, unique Japanese rhetorical techniques such as "kireji" and "kigo" were invented.

First of all, the 5-7-5 rhythm is unique to the Japanese language, and even if other languages were to use this rhythm, it is obvious that it would not guarantee the same effect.

Therefore, when haiku spreads to the rest of the world, it is important to treat it as a short-formed poem and to take methods suitable to each language. For a poem to be recognized worldwide as haiku, it must be short-formed and have an essential spirit of haiku.

The 21st century is just around the corner. The haiku world of Japan is filled with countless haiku groups, poets and societies. Haiku continues to live on by simply reproducing the haiku we Japanese have inherited from our ancestors.

On the other hand, modern poetry has endured various trials and tribulations and is sometimes on the brink of stagnation in various parts of the world. Some devoted poets of the world have yearned for haiku, this short poem that is at the forefront of world poetry and offers the highest level of completeness. Haiku provides a means for these poets to break free of this situation. The only way we can return haiku or poetry to the common people is by responding to the wishes of these poets.

We wish to rise above the current situation of the Japanese haiku world where haiku is at once in prosperity and in stagnation at the end of the century. With all earnestness, we watch the growing global awareness of haiku. We announce the Matsuyama Declaration to poets all over the world from this extraordinary site, Matsuyama, where Shiki ignited the haiku reform a century ago by describing it as the "Poetry by the Defeated."

Our purpose is to once again pave the way for new possibilities in poetry.

     Haiku welcomes the world as it faces outward towards the world.

The Matsuyama Declaration  of 12 September, 1999 is a statement made by the following people:

Arima Akito, Minister of Education of Japan
Haga Toru, President of Kyoto University of Art and Design,
Ueda Makato, Professor Emeritus of Stanford University
Soh Sakon, Poet
Kaneko Tohta, President of the Modern Haiku Society
Jean Jacques Origas,  French Oriental Language Research Institute

Explanatory Note:
The original document, written in Japanese, reflects the erudition and depth of thought of the men listed above.  As with translating haiku, it has proved to be a very difficult task to perfectly render  its profound contents into English.  However, in an effort to present it to the international community, we have prepared this provisional translation.

Nishimura Gania                                          Tanaka Kimiyo
                                   Ruth Vergin

The century has turned.  We're into the second decade by almost two years.  The community of short poetry poets are promoting and absorbing enevitable change.  The new order erodes the old.  Let us hope that where we step now into the undescovered country, we do so with wisdom founded in our past and boldness from our imagination.  "New lamps for old ..."* as the wizard disquised as a beggar proclaims.... "New lamps for old!"  though both should produce light.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladdin_and_His_Wonderful_Lamp