The creation story in the Hebrew Bible is well known: God created the heaven and the earth in six days. Curiously, there is a second creation story in Judaism, this one from the Kabbalistic tradition. When God created the world, He needed to make space to do so; after all, God was everything. In order to make the world, then, God withdrew "in all directions away from one point at the center of its infinity, as it were, thereby creating a vacuum. This vacuum served as the site of creation."(1)
Of course, God did not withdraw completely. The divine presence remained ubiquitous, tying everything together. Underneath the surface distinctness of things, an essential unity is the immutable reality. The Koran says, "Wheresoever you turn, there is the face of Allah."(2) Buddhists bring their palms together to represent overcoming surface duality.(3)
downpour:
my "I-Thou"
T-shirt (4)
Raymond Roseliep
Grounded in the natural world, the interdependence of all things—living and non-living—is a theme of many contemporary haiku.
out of the hermit thrush
out of the valley
one song (5)
Laurie Stoelting
As K. Ramesh notes, we sometimes become aware of this reality in the most unlikely of places.
dusk—
a chatter of frogs outside
the teacher's house (6)
R. H. Blyth wrote that haiku is imbued with "that state of mind in which we are not separated from other things, are indeed identical with them, and yet retain our own individuality and personal peculiarities."(7) Haiku offers us—as readers and poets—the joy of experiencing this reality. We appreciate and delight in the unique ways that other poets experience this—and reflect on the ways that we ourselves do.
Is the idea of interdependence or unity important for your appreciation of haiku? In my reading of haiku, this idea is usually grounded in an experience of nature, as we see in the examples from Laurie Stoelting and K. Ramesh. Have you seen this concept approached from other avenues?
Notes
1 Daniel Matt, The Essential Kabbalah: The Heart of Jewish Mysticism (New York: HarperSanFrancisco, 1995), 15.
2 James Fadiman and Robert Frager, eds., Essential Sufism (New York: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), 228.
3 Huston Smith, The World's Religions: Our Great Wisdom Traditions (New York: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991), 388.
4 Cor van den Heuvel, ed., The Haiku Anthology (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1999), 163.
5 Laurie Stoelting, Light on the Mountain: Selections, ed. Vincent Tripi (Greenfield, MA: Tribe Press, 2008).
6 K. Ramesh, Soap Bubbles: Haiku (Winchester, VA: Red Moon Press, 2007).
7 R.H. Blyth, Haiku: Eastern Culture (Hokuseido, 1960), iii.
For me feeling this unity tends to result in ready made instant haiku, and yes usually nature inspired. It seems to be more generally spiritual than any particular religious idea.
Hi Gael,
Yes, I think this feeling of "at one-ness" will be a general feeling, not necessarily tied to the religious concept of it (from any tradition). I think that it's only after we experience it that we then try to understand or explain it conceptually.
"Is the idea of interdependence or unity important for your appreciation of haiku? In my reading of haiku, this idea is usually grounded in an experience of nature, as we see in the examples from Laurie Stoelting and K. Ramesh. Have you seen this concept approached from other avenues?" -David Grayson
Hi David,
After reading your last post, three haiku came to mind. The first two trans. by R. Hass
Sound of a saw;
poor people,
winter midnight.
Yosa Buson
A poor box;
four or five pennies,
evening rain.
Kobayashi Issa
wind-borne seed
I have
my doubts
Peggy Willis Lyles
Mark,
Wow. I love all three of these; it's been a long time since I've read the first two. For me, too, these perfectly convey that interdependence. Also, your first two examples have got me thinking: poverty is actually another subject where I've often seen the idea of unity in haiku. It may be that confronting poverty leads to empathy (there but for the grace of God go I), which is a short step toward that sense of oneness. On that note, this haiku by H. F Noyes came to mind:
homeless beggar—
the itch of his clothes
all down my spine
Thanks David, those haiku came to mind because they are among my favorites. As for poverty, I live in a wealthy nation in which the jobless and homeless are sometimes reduced to wandering the streets. It may be that confronting their poverty leads to empathy...wish it would happen more often. As your example of the Noyes haiku shows, the homeless are closer to nature whether they like it or not.
You've made a couple of mentions about schools of mysticism on the two Religio threads, and you quote Blyth, who was inspired by his understanding of Zen when he wrote, "that state of mind in which we are not separated from other things, are indeed identical with them, and yet retain our own individuality and personal peculiarities."
However, unity and interconnectedness don't preclude hierarchy. In the first creation telling that you reference above, we find something close to the following words: God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." A world view at odds with the one usually communicated through contemporary elh?
Mark quoted:
God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." A world view at odds with the one usually communicated through contemporary elh?
I'm always intrigued when God is quoted. Who was there to report this verbal? I must say it's a dandy for corporate organisations and property developers to abuse for their own ends. ;-)
I don't have any religious haiku to post, but there are a large body of haiku and haibun writers in the States and the U.K. who write from their Christian beliefs. It would be great to see some here.
Perhaps it takes a ELH to redress the balance?
Chanting the sutras,
I receive the rice;
The shrikes sing.
Santoka translation from:
http://www.terebess.hu/english/haiku/taneda.html (http://www.terebess.hu/english/haiku/taneda.html)
all my best,
Alan
Alan Summers wrote, "I'm always intrigued when God is quoted."
Agreed. Before we go any further, though, let me clear up any potential misunderstandings. Those were not my words. And I'm neither Christian nor Jewish. I should have made better use of punctuation. The quote from the Hebrew Bible is, "God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' "
Hi Mark,
No, you were perfectly clear, and the reply from me wasn't to you insomuch as how people during the editing of the various bibles from all the religions could have possibly overheard God.
I sometimes wonder if it isn't the scientists, in all their atheism, aren't more open to what God has said or is still trying to say. Perhaps God didn't say anything, because God is a doer, and perhaps we just don't listen to the constant message(s).
I'm not religious as I don't believe many of the Teachers and Prophets followed or wanted to follow or create religion, but I'll do my best to write some haiku that directly refer to the big miracle that is this universe.
all my best,
Alan
thanks for the compliment, Alan
perfectly clear
now how to stay in the zone... :)
and David,
Your claim that "The constellation of our ethics and values; sense of community; understanding of the meaning and purpose of the world; perception of reality and time; and much more are grounded in the religious-cultural heritage of the society in which we have been raised" is true, I think, and useful to keep in mind going forward.
Peace
Basho heard a frog leap into a pond, his enlightenment being made in the frog's image.
Alan's remark about "maybe GOD..." reminds me of an old Hebrew saying..."Why did GOD create man? A. Because GOD loves stories!".... And perhaps that's why we're created in the image of GOD? This is getting very interesting! ;)
Hi Mark - Good point about the first creation story (the "seven days" version) as being a more hierarchical version. I agree; the story is from what some have termed the exoteric tradition as opposed to the esoteric (or mystical) version. Regarding mysticism, I am reminded of one interpretation I read that goes something like this: In the pagan/aboriginal world, early humans experienced the world as one. In the later monotheistic tradition, humans felt themselves as separate from nature and the world (i.e. a dualistic and hierarchical world). Mysticism seeks to bridge, or repair, that separation and return humans to that first experience of one-ness with nature and the world.
If I've correctly understood, I agree with both you and Alan that most ELH poets approach the world (or endeavor to) from the non-hierarchical point of view. However, as I argue in the introduction, most people in the West grew up within the Abrahamic tradition and so the hierarchical view remains in our outlook to some degree, whether we are aware of it or prefer it or not.
..confronting poverty leads to empathy (there but for the grace of God go I), which is a short step toward that sense of oneness. On that note, this haiku by H. F Noyes came to mind:
homeless beggar—
the itch of his clothes
all down my spine
Dave: I can relate:
wrong turn
down a dead-end street
a beggar's outstretched hands
I was feeling lost, forelorn when I made that "wrong turn" (but was it really?) and encountering the beggar I felt some kind of affinity (empathy..by the grace of God..) and ended up giving him a gift of $$$--and felt much better when I hairpinned back.
Al
Hi all,
and David, you write, "If I've correctly understood, I agree with both you and Alan that most ELH poets approach the world (or endeavor to) from the non-hierarchical point of view."
To parse those words even more finely, I think very few people, wherever they live, approach the world from a "non-hierarchical view." It's my impression that many (certainly not all, but possibly a majority of) haiku poets endeavor to communicate such a view (for some, a living philosophy) through their haiku. I'd be interested to hear other opinions on what might be a misconception on my part.
Hi Al,
I like your poem and the immediacy of the feeling. I also like what's not in the poem: your description of how you felt better after giving the money.
Hi Mark,
I wholly agree. I think many of us approach, or try to approach, with a non-hierarchical view. Few of us (in my opinion) can achieve that consistently.
honey drips
that would satisfy all...
how sweet the rock
one of my haiku
based on a proverb from the bible
i forget the chapter and verse
but i think this could be seen in both the hierarchical and the elh context
cheers
col
Absolute consolation--the spiritual experienced through the sensual, as is fitting for haiku. Thanks for sharing that, col
thank you Mark
nice to meet you
col :)
Col,
I think it's Proverbs 16:24? King James version: "Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones."
Very nice. Thanks for sharing.
David
hi david and thanks
sorry though
i think i put you on a bum steer by saying this was from proverbs
i had to look up my bible to check this and it is in the Psalms
loosely based on Ps 81:16
...and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.
nice to meet you also
col :)
hey folks
i had an idea a while back for a book of "Holy Haiku"
I have some but do not have enough poems on religious/spiritual topics
any of you guys out there got any?
would a collaboration / anthology be a possibility
thoughts people
col :)
nice to meet you, col :)
your proposed title reminds me of an author who lived north of you, George Mackay Brown, a native son of Stromness (he preferred the older norn name Hamnavoe). On a ferry to Orkney this year, I saw a poster of one of his poems and snapped a picture of it.
The old crofts ride the green hill surges.
Long arks; man and beast under one roof.
from his chapbook Haiku for the Holy Places
it's unlike much of what's called haiku these days, and also interests me for that reason.
I am not particularly religious and not a buddist, and yet I recognise my intelligence is nothing compared with the intelligence and love I discern underlying everything contained withinin the universe in my experience of unity when we experience in total that oneness - it is indescribable and defies being encapsulated within a haiku or indeed in any words. The world would be a totally different experience if we could hold that unity, being human it tends to be transient, a bit like slipping in and out of another dimension. When we can describe it we are pretty damn close to it though. ;)
David, I admire you for leading the discussions on Religio. This is a subject
that is very important to me, but I have struggled to express my spiritual traditions
and faith in an undogmatic way. My passionate interest in Japanese history and literature
was not fueled by an interest in Buddhism or Shinto. I think that many haiku poets
love of haiku is interwoven with interest in or belief in Buddhism. I'm sure that my
desire to go to Japan as a college student and live there for 31 years had more to do
with my fascination with Japan and the affinity I felt with the Japanese (and in some
respects Asian) way of presenting the natural world through their art, poetry and gardens.
Mark Harris remarked the following:
God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." A world view at odds with the one usually communicated through contemporary elh?
In my view, I interpret "have dominion . . ." as "be a caretaker . . ." Like a lot of people from many parts of the world, I was fortunate to grow up in rather pristine nature as a child and was able to freely roam the acre of our home on a lake by myself at a very young age. I felt completely in tune with nature. In the woods near my home, I also sang my heart out in hymns and made-up songs. For me a love of natural creation and my childlike faith was not and is not at odds.
Back to the struggle with haiku and spirituality. I don't mind that it seems acceptable to write about the Buddha in English-language haiku because some of the Japanese masters did. However, I find it can look as imitative of Japanese haiku as writing constantly about cherry blossoms. On the other hand, for many of the Gendai haiku poets in Japan, writing about the cross or Mary & Jesus, like Arima Akito does, seems modern and cosmopolitan in Japan. It is an odd thing about culture, so in a way Elh often mirrors a desire for what is outside of Judeo-Christian culture. I understand that and respect that. There is always a desire in mankind to search for "greener pastures" and believe that another culture is somehow more gentle and deep. I have met so many Japanese who are in love with Western culture and/or who became Christians through their search for more meaning.
I'll end with two haiku that are published in my only chapbook: sunlit jar. I feel they express faith and tradition without being dogmatic. I am part Jewish, so the first one is about Passover. The second has Christian symbolism that will work for some people, like snowbird said, who have the same worldview/faith.
Passover week
a mother's gaze lingers
on her first born son
spring roads
after a three-day absence
the beloved returns
Carmen Sterba
Hi Carmen and Happy Holidays,
Your reply broadened my thinking and is insightful about Japanese culture and cultures in general. You to a large extent have lived my wish about being in Japan.
I like the idea of "stewardship" or as you put it "caretakers". I look at it a little differently but draw the same conclusion that there is binding (both meanings of the word) between our superior and inferior perspective on nature.
I feel we all share this planet in a intricate and intimate way. Poetry, for me, is a venue to express this feeling; and, short poetry suits me best within that venue. I love haiku and its surrounding literary collateral.
Seasonal wishes to all.
Sorry I have modified this reply because part of it was meant for a different topic.
Hi Carmen,
Your observations reminded me of something. When I was an undergraduate at San Francisco State University, I took a class that was taught by a renowned philosophy and religion scholar, Jacob Needleman. Entitled "Hasidism and Sufism," the class focused on the mystical strains of Judaism and Islam, respectively. Towards the end of the class, I remember a couple of Jewish students saying that they had been attracted to and studied Buddhism because they had not known about Kabbalism, Hasidism, etc. They wished that they had learned earlier about the religious approaches in their own tradition.
I'm not advocating one approach over another (exploring your own tradition vs. another), but I was struck by this.
David
Following-up on my previous comment, I was reminded of this haiku by Jeremy Pendrey (who has often written haiku with a Buddhist slant):
downward dog
yoginis stretch
their tattoos
(from Mariposa 22)
I really like the juxtaposition of the Indian/Hindu yoga image with the Western image of tattoos. The yoginis are -- literally and figuratively -- stretching between traditions.
David
"Insurance companies with "acts of God" clauses should be forced to prove God actually exists... #qldfloods
http://twitter.com/twe4ked
I'm with this bloke, even though I don't 'twitter'.
"However, as I argue in the introduction, most people in the West grew up within the Abrahamic tradition and so the hierarchical view remains in our outlook to some degree, whether we are aware of it or prefer it or not." -DavidGrayson
Yes, not only did most of us grow up within it (whether we were religious or not) the inherited hierarchical tradition is institutionalized in Western society. (see above re insurance companies/ acts of God) The USA even went further than many nations in having God on their paper money ('In God We Trust') Advertising can't get much more pervasive and subliminal than that!
Unity and hierarchy don't go together well. Unity can be represented by a circle; hierarchy as vertical pole with high and low positions notched on it. Once Jehovah was promoted from being an ancient god of battle in a polytheistic culture to being the One God and the highest authority, it naturally followed that God's interpreters occupied the next rung down in the authority hierarchy. Too many destructive, cruel, repressive and exploitative things, over the course of history, has been done in God's name and by all three cultures 'of the Book', Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Nevertheless, here is a haiku:
Christmas party-
mynahs watch over a nest
in the garage
- commended paper wasp Jack Stamm Award, 2006, published-the 7th pw Jack Stamm anthology, rusted hinge, 2006
(Indian mynahs are not native to Australia and are considered pests. Councils have issued edicts that nests and eggs should be sought and destroyed. The parents quite nervously watch over the nest after the chicks have hatched until they fledge. I couldn't help but recall the Christmas story when a friend actually showed me the mynahs and the nest at his Christmas party, in 2005.)
- Lorin
Carmen, You said so many things I could never find words for... If you read several translations of the Bible...especially the Old Testament... you find that the words mean a great deal more and encompass more than what is generally thought of in today's terms. So much of any religion can be destroyed by poor teachers and misunderstandings. These things are multiplied substancially across cultural boundaries and practices.
So for the most part I have taken to expressing these things in natural terms...on what I see around me.
my old porch
once again the star is hung
on a beam
The old porch is me.... the star can either be the star I hang on a beam of the porch or the star that is hung on the beam of its light over my old porch. The star is the light which guides my life... eternal light...as long lasting as the stars over head
Quote from: colin stewart jones on December 19, 2010, 03:59:58 AM
hi david and thanks
sorry though
i think i put you on a bum steer by saying this was from proverbs
i had to look up my bible to check this and it is in the Psalms
loosely based on Ps 81:16
...and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.
nice to meet you also
col :)
As I've was reading throught the comments... and coming upon col's comment a vivid image recalled from memory of my first trip to Japan. On a ginko (nature walk) near Akita visiting the graves of some diciples of Basho, I noticed bees (this being early autumn) around one of the granite grave stones which had developed a crack over the ages, and, from this crack a stream of honey with bees entering and exiting above it!!
This moment has been a niggle of memory and I believe a poem or set of poems may eventually come from it. Especially, from the resonation that which col wrote:
"loosely based on Ps 81:16
...and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee."
honey
from the autumn bees --
graveside flowers
autumn sunset:
golden honey seeps
from a gravestone
who would have thought? -- honey from a gravestone
even a sweet life ends -- honeycomb grave
-- word play --
divine design -- the bees honeycomb a catacomb
My apologies for my comment BEEing a bit abuzz!
Hi Lorin,
Thanks for the post! I like the haiku on several levels. One thing that strikes me is that it perfectly dovetails with your observations about authority and religious institutions. In the poem, councils are the authority (implied, of course, since they are not mentioned). The haiku nicely empathizes with the mynahs. And, of course, brings in the Christmas story. There is so much present in the poem's three lines!
Merrill,
Regarding: "So for the most part I have taken to expressing these things in natural terms...on what I see around me."
I really like and appreciate this practice, which can ground a poem (and probably the poet, too!). It reminds me of several of Robert Spiess's speculations, including the one that is the topic for this year's contest: "Haiku help to make our senses more alive to sounds, and colors, to textures and odors."
I really enjoyed the haiku.
Thanks, chibi575. I like the haiku, especially the first.
I decided to Google "honey." The Wikipedia result reminded me of the symbolism of honey in Judaism, and I also learned something about Hinduism. Here's the info from Wikipedia:
"In Hinduism, honey (Madhu) is one of the five elixirs of immortality (Panchamrita). In temples, honey is poured over the deities in a ritual called Madhu abhisheka. The Vedas and other ancient literature mention the use of honey as a great medicinal and health food.
In Jewish tradition, honey is a symbol for the new year, Rosh Hashana. At the traditional meal for that holiday, apple slices are dipped in honey and eaten to bring a sweet new year. Some Rosh Hashana greetings show honey and an apple, symbolizing the feast. In some congregations, small straws of honey are given out to usher in the new year."
So, honey in these two cases represents immortality and the new year (new beginnings).
David
Interesting thread on honey.
sunlit jar
the beekeeper's gift
on the doorstep
Carmen Sterba
This is not religious per se, but is one of those haiku that turned out to have a sense of awe and fulfillment beyond my expectation.
interesting David
thanks for the info on the symbolism of honey
on a simpler level
a land of milk and honey
would resonate with people as a place where one would have an ample supply of the good/sweet things life has to offer and where the struggle to feed oneself and family would not be one's constant pre-occupation
of course, the greeks also sought ambrosia and nectar
col :)
hi lorin i remember seeing an Aussie film
about the man who sued God
based on that story
unfortunately it starred billy Connolly which has always gotta be bad casting
anyway i must strongly disagree with your other assertions
so what god do you see on the US dollar
it may say in god we trust
but there is masonic symbols, a pyramid and the eye of horus
is is not the Allah of islam, or Jehovah ( more correctly Yahweh) of Judeo-Christianity
as to your point about terrible things done in the name of religion
do you really believe all terrible things, attrocities or wars over the centuries have religion as their cause
granted differences in religious beliefs has been used as an excuse to go to war
let's just take wars as an example
war has always been and will always be the primary means of increasing territory and wealth
the war machine still drives the worlds economy today
and it is financial gain or strategic reasons that dictate whether a country goes to war with another
the word rival and river have the same root in latin no surprise then that the guy on the other side of the river should be your enemy and he must be attacked and his possessions taken from him
no one really cared about kosovo or rwanda because they had not strategic importance or resources that could be exploited when the wars or fighting was over
not so iraq (oil) afghanistan (opium)
when the fighting is over watch multinationals and corporations begin the bidding war for tenders and licenses to operate
these wars are being fought in the name of democratisation..not a faith religion but an ideology neverthe less and the people are still dying
quite frankly i find it ridiculous that people who have a problem with faith based systems still argue that religion causes war. (usually citing the crusades) The irony here is people believe this so called fact with what is akin to a religious faith and is certainly not based on empirical knowledge --at best it is naiive at worst some kind of fundamentalist deliberate blinkering of onself in order to deny the obvious truth and satisy some perverse need to justify a belief in what is patently false
remember religion means to follow without question and to some people of faith the word religion implies bondage not the freedom that comes from having a spiritual connection and relationship with their God
but anyhow you probably don't accept my argument and neither do you have to
but can you back your point with the numbers who have been killed in the name of God
but taking just the 20th century as a starting point
number of dead in the name of Secular humanism, politically ideologies, Atheism or other non faith based political systems:
congo to 1908 8 million
mexican revolution 1910-20 10 million
WWI 15million
Russian Revolution 9 million
first chinese civil war 5 million
WWII 63 million
hitler ( who wanted to exterminate all jews, hitler was into the occult, and his reason to kill the jews: he blamed the jews for giving the world a conscience ) 6million
not counting gypsies, gays and the handicapped etc
stalin: no one really knows possibly 60million democides
+ 20 million russians who died fighting the nazis
Mao: 40 millions
korean war 1950-3 .. 3 million
cambodia pol pot 1.65 million
afghanistan
when the taliban were on our side 1.8 million
some dictators of the 20th c
mussolini
tito
franco
sadam hussein
general marcos
baby doc
practically all of S America had a dictator at some point
i am not even going to add all these up
no doubt there are many more that i have not included
well seeing as we are all haikuist's
the Japanese killed 4 million in china
and of course the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki
not forgetting the carpet bombing of dresden
any way the point is there may have been many centuries of war
and religious differences may have been a motive though i would argue man's greed is the prime motivation for most wars
but man's ingenuity for finding new and increasingly effective was of killing his brothers expanded exponentially in the 20th century
and more people have died since the beginning of 20th c in the name of secular, humanistic, atheist political ideologies than the combined total of deaths from wars in the name of god before that date.
that is even if you assume all wars before this period were fought in the name of god
if you don't ..then i am even more confident in my reasoniing based on the numbers alone
col :)
i thought posting this here might be appropriate given my previous comment
A PRIORI: Colin Stewart Jones
.
verbatim word for word
vox Dei vivat the voice of God lives
vis vitae an energy (a living force)
via, veritas, vita the way, the truth, the life
verbum sat sapienti a word is enough for a wise man
Years ago my Latin teacher told me that river and rival have the same root. Now as I look across the Euphrates I see my cousin and must hate him because he is descended from Ishmael and I don't care for his religion. "At least we can worship any god we choose." Mutatis mutandis.
They are Legion—for they are many.
Ah! But we have the Classical Tradition. Plato was an ideas man, true, but is that worth dying for? So we have landed classes and political oligarchies that will fight to maintain our liberty. "They're all terrorists and treat their women like shit." Ex uno disce omnes.
We are Idealists—not ideologues.
"You've never fought in a war." Even so, many have won the freedom for me not to impose my will upon another. Nevertheless, the Lion still follows the Eagle into battle. Dum spiro, spero.
I am Poet . . .
crescent moon—
tonight the man
is beheaded
-------------------------------------------
Translations:
Mutatis mutandis: with the necessary changes
Ex uno disce omnes: from one judge of the rest
Dum spiro, spero: while I breathe, I hope
---------------------------------------------
published: Haibun Today, Jan 7 2009
cheers
col :)
Quote from: colin stewart jones on January 19, 2011, 05:00:14 AM
hi lorin i remember seeing an Aussie film
about the man who sued God
based on that story
unfortunately it starred billy Connolly which has always gotta be bad casting
anyway i must strongly disagree with your other assertions
col :)
Hi Col, I vaguely remember seeing that film. It was a comedy, so Billy Connolly would've been good casting, imo. It had to be someone Irish, to carry it off. I guess it was a forgettable film, though.
I really don't want to get into argument or debate about religion, though. My dislike isn't for ordinary people of any faith, but for the system/s which authorize man (& it usually has been 'man') to pass off his own view/s of things as 'God's Law', 'God's Will' and 'God's Word'.
(... on U.S.A. paper money, along with the symbols you mention, I see the word 'God' quite legibly printed - 'In God We Trust'.)
- Lorin