If the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect, would someone, please explain why.
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
- Scott Metz
modern haiku can be any three line poem, or for that fact, any written phrase or set of phrases declared by the author to be a haiku... saddly, for some, this is mostly the case... yet this is very freeing and should be encouraged to become its own genre (as the Japanese have named modern haiku, gendai haiku).
If you want to know historically what haiku is, start with exploring Shiki, the Japanese poet that coined the word from a combination/contraction of the Japanese written in romaji, "haikai no ku" to "haiku" this done in the mid to late 1800s. As far as I'm concerned, if it ain't Japanese it ain't haiku. I'm calling the poems I write in English based upon Shiki's definition of haiku, "chibiku" literally "short verse" in Japanese. Have fun with your explorations. ;D
ciao...
Interestingly enough I read this out to my wife without stating it was a poem and she immediately knew it was a haiku and very interesting.
It's great to have something fresh and different.
I saw this earlier and loved it as well.
Alan
Quote from: lulu on August 15, 2011, 09:47:30 AM
If the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect, would someone, please explain why.
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
- Scott Metz
I think it might be wise to begin to answer your question by questioning yourself as to what a haiku is, for your question really begs a question.
Hamlet said, referencing classical notions of theater "to hold as 'twere the
mirror up to nature."
But, time moves on doesn't it? Read Abrams The Mirror and the Lamp and you will learn that by the time of the Romantics literature was no longer judged by classical standards but by new ones: how well the author shone the lamp of his/her inner being on the world and thus illumined it.
So, how about asking yourself what "birthing" is and what a "mirror" does, particularly in view of modern theories of language and art and you will begin to formulate an answer for yourself.
And just as a side note, Shiki was born in the 19th C. and wrote in the Meiji period, which was the end of the century to the beginning of the 20th C.
Or, if we look at another gentre-painting- we can see the disruption from classical representation to say cubism. Here what was previously "represented" as "real" was broken up, analyzed, and re-assembled to depict objects from various viewpoints, thus representing the subject in a greater context than had previously been tried.
Hi Lulu,
Good question. I'm intrigued that none of the responses so far have attempted to address your question directly.
Hmmm ...
Hi Lulu, I guess the best way to answer your question would be if Scott himself posted a response, but in the mean time I'll try to take a stab at it.
To me this is a haiku because firstly we are presented with a peice of nature, albeit a strange peice of nature. I can't recall seeing any blue apples in my short life, but I don't doubt they do exist somewhere.
So since haiku are often described as nature poems we are off to a good start, yes?
The second line is an action, which again is pretty typical for a haiku. Of course we are forced back to the first line, and are left wondering for a second how the hell a blue apple could give birth. But as Jack states what is birth? Is it not animation, an adding of something to a pre-exisiting world?
I think that is what happens in the last line. The Mirror is animated and gains life by the reflection of the blue apple inside it.
I hope at least a part of this makes sense, and helps in some way.
warmest,
John
QuoteIf the following, from August 15th's per diem is considered a haiku, with respect,
would someone, please explain why.
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
- Scott Metz
In this special case, maybe the author can answer this?
Or the editor who choose the poem for "per diem" ?
Haiku in languages other than Japanese has taken many twists and turns, as you will find when reading more.
Traditional Japanese haiku are well defined by their form.
Basic Conditions of Japanese Language Haiku
Inahata Teiko
http://www.kyoshi.or.jp/inv-haiku/basic.htm
But that will not help much in understanding and accepting why some short poems in other languages use the qualifier "haiku".
Try to find a "definition" of English Language Haiku online, and you will be quite surprized, I guess.
Gabi
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/
.
Sandra, the reason I did not take on the subject directly, to be quite frank is it bores me and has been discussed ad nauseum on many threads at THF. Also, I was not quite convinced of the naivite of the questioner; it was more of a statement than a question and I don't really care for baiting. Hence, my indirect answer was a way to avoid my annoyance, to not sharply rebuke overly-simplified assaults on modernist haiku that have raised the form to the equivalent of modern poetry in general and to put the work of answering the question back on the questioner; perhaps some years of reading and research and understanding of language theory and modern art might qualify detractors to answer for themselves.
I'm afraid your little hmm is not an answer; it does not mean that the question can't be answered, or that indirect answers are avoiding what can't be accomplished, as you hint.
The question is in my opinion impertinent; and frankly, if you want an answer, look at the author's posting today re: Basho's old pond and you will see he is answering the question by not taking it up with those who with little knowledge jump to over-simplified conclusions.
I agree with Jack. Sandra, do you see this as a haiku or not, and Lulu, why is it 'not' a haiku to you.
Also many Japanese haiku write veer from the constrictions of so called form. Gosh at one time you could be imprisoned and even tortured for veering away from the form. Is that what some are supporting albeit indirectly?
It's haiku to me and I think it's fantastic and Basho and Santoka etc... proved you have to break the mould sometimes to keep the art pure.
Alan
Has Scott Metz given an account of what he originally witnessed to provoke this possible haiku?
The reason why I ask this is because the opening question leads us to consider the poem on a technical level instead of looking at the face value.
I have been in the fruit trade all my life and have never come across anything close to being a blue apple, so when I read 'blue apple', I didn't associate it as fruit.
My conclusion on the poem was that of an apple touch pad being turned off, which enabled it to be used as a mirror. The same object becoming a juxtaposion of itself. Whether this would be a haiku is another question.
Andrew
This will not anwer the question, but is another attempt to get to the poetry called haiku
Characteristics of English Haiku Poll Results
http://hailhaiku.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/characteristics-of-english-haiku-poll-results/
btw
blue apple, in Japanese, would be ao-ringo ... which basically is the word used for
green apple.
googeling with blue appel gives some interesting results too
http://www.google.co.jp/search?tbm=isch&hl=ja&source=hp&biw=839&bih=816&q=%22blue+apple%22&gbv=2&oq=%22blue+apple%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=938l3125l0l3282l12l12l0l11l0l0l125l125l0.1l1l0
and "Blue apples" is even better
http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja&biw=839&bih=816&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%22blue+apples%22&btnG=%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&oq=%22blue+apples%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=50844l50844l0l51703l1l1l0l0l0l0l140l140l0.1l1l0
Gabi
Thanks for the replies Jack, Alan and John.
I took the question at face value and in good faith and didn't see any baiting going on so was sorry that the replies that Lulu was receiving weren't that illuminating as I was going to be interested to read them myself.
The "hmm", Jack, was merely intended as a thoughtful gap filler, waiting for one of the many erudite posters to come along and help Lulu (and me) out. I wasn't hinting at anything.
My knowledge of modernist haiku, as you term them, is almost nil, but I am trying hard to learn and THF threads are one of the few places where I might do that, even if I do often find the discussion beyond me, but that's my fault, not the posters.
So, due to my general dullness and ignorance, it wasn't until I read John's thoughts that your text began to make sense.
I will go and have a look at the other thread, as you suggest and will try to keep my naivete to myself in future. (I daresay one of the emoticons would work well here but I hate them.)
I do hope Scott will drop in and share his viewpoint as the author.
One last remark.
I don't know where you got the idea, Andrew, that haiku was based on observation, but it is not.
Basho's famous old pond poem, which created a brand new approach to haiku was based on imagination, not observation.
(see Scott Metz's remarks on the thread for "the pain of" something-sorry I can't recall the Japanese terms); it is loaded with commentary by famous Japanese critics).
Hi Jack,
I can't find the link you are alluding to, but it's within THF itself? I'll try to hunt it down if it's here.
In the meantime, it may be of interest to read this review:
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Metz2009.html
all my best,
Alan
Quote from: Jack Galmitz on August 16, 2011, 04:48:23 AM
One last remark.
I don't know where you got the idea, Andrew, that haiku was based on observation, but it is not.
Basho's famous old pond poem, which created a brand new approach to haiku was based on imagination, not observation.
(see Scott Metz's remarks on the thread for "the pain of" something-sorry I can't recall the Japanese terms); it is loaded with commentary by famous Japanese critics).
Hi Sandra
I won't use emoticons as I don't like them either, although I do use a lot of these ;-) or :-) but I promise not to use them further in this post to you.
I'm not aware of any baiting (in a bad way) from the post started by a person calling themselves lulu. As that naughty Jim Kacian has used pseudonoymns on THF before, although I think I was the only one to see that, it could be Jim getting a healthy feisty discussion going. ;-)
We can't continually have one foot dragging in the past of what we think both Japanese and non-Japanese was, or should be. Good writers will always push, stretch, and test the boundaries. I am sure Basho wasn't the first to do this re old pond, and crow etc...
I'm sorry if you don't find our replies to the question illuminating, but after all, this discussion is open to everyone, and you are free to leave an opinion, breaking the haiku, or otherwise, down to its basic components maybe? I think that would be fascinating to any reader to see that, even if you are not familiar, as you say, with modern haiku or modernist haiku.
I think that's what John McManus did? I found his breakdown analysis fascinating, and I am sure he doesn't purport to understand gendai haiku, and yet it was incredibly useful.
We are here to stretch ourselves, not only as writers, but as readers, and we need more difficult reading to happen otherwise our once sharp reading and writing knives will in deed become dull.
Alan
Quote from: sandra on August 15, 2011, 11:08:56 PM
Thanks for the replies Jack, Alan and John.
I took the question at face value and in good faith and didn't see any baiting going on so was sorry that the replies that Lulu was receiving weren't that illuminating as I was going to be interested to read them myself.
The "hmm", Jack, was merely intended as a thoughtful gap filler, waiting for one of the many erudite posters to come along and help Lulu (and me) out. I wasn't hinting at anything.
My knowledge of modernist haiku, as you term them, is almost nil, but I am trying hard to learn and THF threads are one of the few places where I might do that, even if I do often find the discussion beyond me, but that's my fault, not the posters.
So, due to my general dullness and ignorance, it wasn't until I read John's thoughts that your text began to make sense.
I will go and have a look at the other thread, as you suggest and will try to keep my naivete to myself in future. (I daresay one of the emoticons would work well here but I hate them.)
I do hope Scott will drop in and share his viewpoint as the author.
Just doing a search engine check on "blue apple" painting brought this up:
http://dailypaintings.riahills.com/2011/04/blue-apple-2.html
Ria Hills says:
This is the second blue apple I've painted. I've had a number of requests for another so here it is!
I don't know if I'd eat a blue apple but I love the way it looks.
Blue is one of the few colors my colorblind husband can see. A red apple would appear as khaki colored to him.
Another painting (sold):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CfPOGANfxZE/TatkP80YlGI/AAAAAAAAAw0/0LlUgWdZEx4/s1600/La+Pomme+Bleue+DP4.17.11.jpg
There must be something in the psyche when we see a blue apple. Blue isn't a colour we associate with food, despite grapes and eggplants having aspects of blue.
On artist Janett Marie's website a commentator said:
leigh said...
i'm sure this apple is part of "blue heaven"! there's gotta be a song....elvis maybe? better tell martha to start bakin us a pie for the party! wonder where you get blue apples???
And of course Mondrian! ;-)
Piet Mondrian's Blue Apple Tree Series also makes me believe that possibly Scott Metz was influenced by it, and that Jim Kacian may be using one of his many disguises. <grin>
What fun.
More comments please, and looking forward to what you all have to say.
Alan
So Jim, as you are watching, is lulu and you an item? <grin>
As in, a nom de plume I mean. ;-)
Alan
hi all
just for the record — t'aint me!
j
Darn it! ;-)
But as you've posted, what is your take on the verse?
I don't think I'm biased when I find it extraordinary, and my wife, a highly experienced writer (and also writes haiku) respected it and presumed it was a haiku straightaway even though I didn't give any context when I read it out.
Alan
Quote from: Jim Kacian on August 16, 2011, 09:45:27 AM
hi all
just for the record — t'aint me!
j
The rallying call of the "imaginary" qua BLUE APPLE
puts into QUESTION the real
and will of necessity CREATE the MIRROR (reflection) of
what is REAL
THE BLUE APPLE is the REAL of
language as such
having no NATURAL or NECESSARY relat
ionship with what is OUTSIDE
the play of SIGNIFIERS/SIGNIFIEDS
Of language
to a WORLD
so it postulates that the
real of LANGUAGE
REPRODUCES ITSELF
AD INFINITUM
in that them mirror (an image by the way that Metz constantly uses in his HAIKU);
OR,
are we looking
at the constitution of an IDENTITY-read BLUE APPLE,
by way of the MIRROR STAGE
when REALITY is FRAGMENTARY,
an illusion of WHOLENESS?
OR
would a BLUE APPLE
so so butiful
NOT CREATE ANOTHER
in tribute!
OR
Todorov's FANTASTIC
in which the laws of
NATURE
must be changed to
UNDERSTAND
an event;
a CHALLENGE
to HAIKU as NATURE
pome
cloudless
a day balanced
on the blue apple
Scott Metz
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
- Scott Metz
I am hesitant to step into these kinds of discussions since definitions of haiku and our reactions to them are personal, and often pointless, but here goes... My definition of haiku is undoubtedly different than others, as like definitions of religion/spirituality it probably should be. That said, I require from a haiku: participation on the part of the reader, and a transference of meaning from poet to reader. Add in the fact that this poem is essentially two parts (blue apple) and (it gives birth to a mirror) and I am satisfied. I wouldn't call it a classical or traditional haiku, but I'd call it a haiku.
My first requirement seems easily satisfied; Metz doesn't tell me what to make of the scene's parts. I have to determine/feel that myself.
Requirement two. The most interesting feature to me is the switch of expectation. Normally we see images in a mirror, or in other words, the mirror captures or creates an image; in this case Metz has the object creating the mirror, or realizes that without the object the mirror is pointless. There is also a nice redundancy, where the object creates the mirror which creates the object which creates the mirror etc... It is also possible that "it" doesn't even relate to the apple. Now, I don't know what a blue apple is, but it seems to fit nicely in this perceptually shifted scene. Perhaps a sad apple, or one tinted with a blue urban light. Perhaps an offshoot of 'blue moon', that we only have this perception occasionally. That also works for me. In the end I am left with existential questions of myself and my place in this world. The same questions apply to me. Do I have value outside of myself, or do I need a mirror (society?) to make myself whole?
A nice haiku.
Paul Miller
Quote from: Jack Galmitz on August 15, 2011, 01:09:28 PM
Or, if we look at another gentre-painting- we can see the disruption from classical representation to say cubism. Here what was previously "represented" as "real" was broken up, analyzed, and re-assembled to depict objects from various viewpoints, thus representing the subject in a greater context than had previously been tried.
Lulu, the poem is magical. Sometimes we have to be less rational to enter a poem.
Cheers from Argentina!
Mariu
Lulu asked a good tough question, and I love your response Mariu because we have to do that, be less rational, after all we aren't filling out a prescription form.
Alan
Quote from: Mariu Moreno on August 16, 2011, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: Jack Galmitz on August 15, 2011, 01:09:28 PM
Or, if we look at another gentre-painting- we can see the disruption from classical representation to say cubism. Here what was previously "represented" as "real" was broken up, analyzed, and re-assembled to depict objects from various viewpoints, thus representing the subject in a greater context than had previously been tried.
Lulu, the poem is magical. Sometimes we have to be less rational to enter a poem.
Cheers from Argentina!
Mariu
If 'show not tell' is the primary 'poetic' engine utilised by haiku and if we remove it and apply non-haiku formal elements to that engine, what happens? Do we have a haiku - even if it looks the same? Some people get around this not-really-a-haiku problem by declaring a non-rhyming tercet to be; haiku inspired, a micropoem, a senryu.. Would it not be easier to give whatever is using the 'show not tell' instrument in three lines (with maybe some elements plucked from haiku, or not) its own product name? You know, rather than riding on the coattails of the major brand.
Hi John,
Interesting argument.
I think the Japanese gendai haiku poets have not only had that argument used against them, but in the 1940s were imprisioned and even tortured.
Nowadays prison and torture don't occur for them, but they still have a tough time.
If we look at Basho who broke the rules with his old pond poem which he insisted was hokku, or Ozaki and Santoka who continuously broke the rules, and Santoka is even more popular than Basho and Issa, then what is haiku, and to who?
Just thinking out aloud, and aware that this argument in different shades has been put forward to a few others who only think haiku can be a set template routine.
I'm with the ones who push boundaries myself, from Basho onwards, and I wish I could aspire to write like them and not just admire their guts in saving the genre time after time. ;-)
It's good to have these challenging questions and arguments because art wouldn't survive if it was too easy.
Alan
Quote from: haikurambler on August 17, 2011, 07:53:45 AM
If 'show not tell' is the primary 'poetic' engine utilised by haiku and if we remove it and apply non-haiku formal elements to that engine, what happens? Do we have a haiku - even if it looks the same? Some people get around this not-really-a-haiku problem by declaring a non-rhyming tercet to be; haiku inspired, a micropoem, a senryu.. Would it not be easier to give whatever is using the 'show not tell' instrument in three lines (with maybe some elements plucked from haiku, or not) its own product name? You know, rather than riding on the coattails of the major brand.
Browser error - will update with a reply...
Hi John,
Thanks for prompt reply. ;-)
You said:If 'show not tell' is the primary 'poetic' engine utilised by haikuI'm curious as I've never seen this written down anywhere. It doesn't feel very Japanese, or classic, modern or contemporary haiku inside and outside Japan.
It's been a fad to say this a lot for all kinds of poetry, but it would slow down creativity if we used this exclusively and not selectively.
You said:
if we ... apply non-haiku formal elements to that engine, what happens?[see original quote in full below in context]It depends if you see haiku as poetry, or literature, or something else. Didn't Blyth say haiku wasn't poetry?
I tend to feel that haiku is elusive and it is and it isn't poetry, and the same re literature, so it's even freer to pull other techniques into itself. Haiku, though small, is big enough to absorb many new techniques.
But also, non-Japanese haiku writers merely scratch the surface in using the amount of techniques a proficient Japanese haiku writer would use.
all my best,
Alan
Quote from: haikurambler on August 17, 2011, 08:36:14 AM
If 'show not tell' is the primary 'poetic' engine utilised by haiku and if we remove it and apply non-haiku formal elements to that engine, what happens? Do we have a haiku - even if it looks the same? Some people get around this not-really-a-haiku problem by declaring a controversial, non-rhyming tercet to be; haiku inspired, a micropoem, a senryu.. Would it not be easier to give whatever is using the 'show not tell' instrument in typically three lines (with maybe some elements plucked from haiku, or not) its own product name? You know, rather than it riding on the coattails of a major brand.
Hi, Alan. Yes, to simplify:
If 'show not tell is the only characteristic of a micropoem (which may also, at the same time, simulate the haiku line varieties; typically 3, sometimes two, occasionally 1) - then, is this enough to confuse that micropoem with a haiku? Simply calling any three-liner a haiku is already a major problem here in the Anglo-West. When the 'show not tell' is applied (not an easy thing for a novice), the confusion is compounded. Being 'creative', clearly, should not be an excuse for slack understanding and application of haiku's unique DNA. Haiku form and methodology is, surely, something, although flexible, quite specific - not just anything we declare it to be under some naïve banner of individualistic freedom.
-
Moving on to your second response, Alan:
Yes, 'show not tell'. Think about it, Alan. Without this primary instrument could we have a haiku (of any stripe)? Now, whether haiku are poems or magic spells (and the latter can be argued quite simply), haiku does need a formal structure to exist. Certainly the subject matter of haiku is elusive, but the formal requirements are not rocket science. We could argue for a 'state specific' definition of haiku. That is to say, we could allot all known levels of human consciousness their own haiku locale (any interested reader could reference Charles Tart). Why not? However, this still, clearly, requires an understanding of fundamental haiku form. I'm sure there's a place for everything and that everything has its place - it just needs sorted out. In the sorting out we all learn much. Perhaps we even evolve.
-
I wonder what others have to say about these particular viewpoints? There's probably enough here for several topics!
Hi John,
Just to stay on topic at least a little, I feel that Scott Metz's blue apple verse is a haiku, and that his other verses that incorporate blue apple are also haiku.
Now whether or not they are classic/traditional or modern haiku is a question I'll leave to others, but I do need to say that even gendai haiku (Japanese contemporary haiku genre) are firmly rooted in hokku and haiku.
It would be great for a respected Japanese haiku poet to comment on the blue apple haiku.
You say:If 'show not tell is the only characteristic of a micropoem (which may also, at the same time, simulate the haiku line varieties; typically 3, sometimes two, occasionally 1) - then, is this enough to confuse that micropoem with a haiku?Well first of all I don't see any micropoetry as only defined by it having or not having show not tell. To me, show don't tell is just another tool or technique along with all the other methods to use or not use.
Whether a micropoem has or doesn't have show don't tell is irrevelent in my opinion as to regards if it is a haiku or not.
If an author decides to call their micropoem a haiku then it's quite possible it is a haiku, especially coming from a respected and competent haiku writer.
If we don't have the benefit of having the fourth line, or knowing the author by the fourth line for whatever reason, and there isn't a label stuck to it, then it's down to the experienced reader of haiku (and maybe other micropoetry) to decide or know if it's haiku.
A good poem is a good poem at the end of the day, and that has to be a main concern for a conscientious reader, and a conscientious editor, if it is submitted to a poetry magazine, or haiku publication.
As show don't tell is not the main criteria of haiku, the only confusion I think would occur is that the person reading a haiku or non-haiku does not know the difference, and isn't a conscientious reader, but may wrongly perceive a haiku is just any old thing forced badly or otherwise into a 575 syllable construct.
You say:Being 'creative', clearly, should not be an excuse for slack understanding and application of haiku's unique DNA. Haiku form and methodology is, surely, something, although flexible, quite specific - not just anything we declare it to be under some naïve banner of individualistic freedom. I don't know what your criteria is for being creative, so I can only speak from my experience. Being creative is as it says, and someone being creative, whether with playdough, or executing a unique bridge or transport design etc... are going to play around until they get it right.
The same could apply with someone new or seasoned with haiku. I can tell you that Scott Metz is very erudite, and knowledgeable about haiku from its roots right through to contemporary times, and runs one of the most exciting and challenging haiku publications around.
As artists, being creative is our duty, and that includes stretching boundaries and crossing over barriers, and in hokku/haiku that is what Basho did onwards.
I'm not quite sure what you personally mean by
under some naïve banner of individualistic freedom but that might have been the viewpoint of the Japanese authorities and secret police during WW11 with gendai haiku poets in Japan, and also by a certain eastern european who reported haiku poets to the secret police back in the 1990s for not creating only patriotic haiku.
So I'm a little concerned if you are against individual freedoms, as that is against artistic nature.
re: haiku does need a formal structure to exist.Yep, agree, a template, just as scaffolding helps a building be complete, but at some point the scaffolding comes down, and the template is invisible and not showing through the poem.
re: ...requires an understanding of fundamental haiku form. I'm sure there's a place for everything and that everything has its place - it just needs sorted out. In the sorting out we all learn much. Perhaps we even evolve.
Of course everyone who writes haiku should have an understanding of its fundamental form, but several million people, not just outside Japan, often write doggerel jokey statements in 575 and strongly insist it is haiku.
They will say stick to the rules! But when you mention kire/kireji/kigo etc... suddenly they say damn the rules I can't be bothered.
But a dedicated haiku reader and writer/reader will absorb hundreds of years of examples and anything recorded that Basho onwards have said, and will read, like me, any number between 250,000 to 1,000,000 if they've been a student of haiku for at least 15-20 years, from pre-haiku to contemporary up to the minute haiku.
There will be sorting out, because innovative haiku has to stay the course, not just a year later, but five years, ten years, twenty years later, and more.
I daresay the blue apple haiku is one that will become a classic for many years to come, but that depends on far more than just that red wheelbarrow of course. ;-)
Alan
Quote from: haikurambler on August 17, 2011, 09:49:24 AM
Hi, Alan. Yes, to simplify:
If 'show not tell is the only characteristic of a micropoem (which may also, at the same time, simulate the haiku line varieties; typically 3, sometimes two, occasionally 1) - then, is this enough to confuse that micropoem with a haiku? Simply calling any three-liner a haiku is already a major problem here in the Anglo-West. When the 'show not tell' is applied (not an easy thing for a novice), the confusion is compounded. Being 'creative', clearly, should not be an excuse for slack understanding and application of haiku's unique DNA. Haiku form and methodology is, surely, something, although flexible, quite specific - not just anything we declare it to be under some naïve banner of individualistic freedom.
-
Moving on to your second response, Alan:
Yes, 'show not tell'. Think about it, Alan. Without this primary instrument could we have a haiku (of any stripe)? Now, whether haiku are poems or magic spells (and the latter can be argued quite simply), haiku does need a formal structure to exist. Certainly the subject matter of haiku is elusive, but the formal requirements are not rocket science. We could argue for a 'state specific' definition of haiku. That is to say, we could allot all known levels of human consciousness their own haiku locale (any interested reader could reference Charles Tart). Why not? However, this still, clearly, requires an understanding of fundamental haiku form. I'm sure there's a place for everything and that everything has its place - it just needs sorted out. In the sorting out we all learn much. Perhaps we even evolve.
-
I wonder what others have to say about these particular viewpoints? There's probably enough here for several topics!
Hello ALL: Fabulous thread! Enjoying very much.
Altho new to haiku (one year in) I'm not new to poetry. Having come from a background of experimental avant garde poetry (I was editor and publisher of THE SOLE PROPRIETOR--a meta-poetic early 80s mag devoted exclusively to what--at that time--was considered experimental: ie meta-, found, language happenings (meta-translations), concrete, etc (8 issues--the final 3 borne along by an NEA grant).
Since I catered to the experimental, on some occasions I was intrigued by certain submissions that were difficult to comprehend and when this occurred, I queried the poet to please submit an explanation because I was interested in publishing his creations and by doing so and by the poet's willingness to prose explode, I was simultaneously learning and improving my own ability to understand.
What I'm driving at: a thread like this one is efficacious for me--especially when seasoned experimental poets are willing to prose explode and share knowledge.
Over the past year, having read lots of experimental ku, my only gripe is that I sometimes find experimental poets guilty of left-brain overload--at the expense of emotional impact (heart qualities). The poems are like conundrums--clever and enticing one to decode. Of course, this is only me (if an intellectual poem tugs at your heartstrings that's fine). But for me, the most memorable poems are those that exhibit a balance of head and heart (left and right brain) and when it comes to creating some--I try to engage both heart and mind in the mix.
Just my thoughts,
Al
Hi, Alan. You've made several points there that can be replied to. However, let's re-address this one about 'show not tell'. You say:
As show don't tell is not the main criteria of haiku...
First, allow me to rephrase the statement that I made, you know, about 'show not tell'. Let's clarify my unambiguous open question:
Without 'show not tell' as THE primary formal requirement of a haiku, its initial foundation, would we have a haiku?
-
Now, let's check this topics interesting subject . . .
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
- Scott Metz
The first essential is met, Scott is evoking a virtual representation in our mind's eye. Furthermore, he has made his point transparently and succinctly. There is juxtapositioning - sparking meaning across the gap. Yes, his use of caesura give us visualisation space in which each segment of the unrhyming tercet is allowed to 'breath' (vivacious life into the substance). The mysterious MA arena between stimulus and response is populated by an evoked or invoked vision. The locale of that numinous silent void of ubiquitous mystic endeavour. There is even a potential kigo (or, more typically, outside of Japan, a seasonal reference). So, all is well. Until we get to the stumbling block. OMG! What's this about a blue apple! Then, as we puzzle this riddle, a blue Apple product pops into our understanding via some capricious lateral thinking thing. Sorted. But. Hang on a minute. Is it? Where's the capital 'A' for a proper noun? Drat. Scott must be meaning something else. Well, in that case this apple must be a Photoshop job, or some other piece of 2D art. The only other explanation might be something triggered by Issa's 'laughing mushrooms', or whatever. If the latter then we are pushing into multidimensional haiku. (Which some may believe is the future of haiku. As mentioned elsewhere, Charles Tart's 'state specific; where all levels of possible consciousness, once charted, are to be put to use by science and science's mutable consort, Maya, in her twin roles of art and religion.)
This is what is presented in 'the blue apple' item, among other things. Is it a haiku? Is it not a haiku? Well, yes and no, depending on which lenses we can access with personal credibility. Should this controversial example be hidden from the general global public on the grounds that it will add even more confusion to the formal criteria of haiku? Who is to say? Certainly not I.
Hi, al fogel.
Yes, that's the way to learn - like your style. Also your reference to left/right brain (not to mention the rest). For any readers of this thread who are maybe in the dark about the 'bilateral symmetry of the human brain' (cough), here's quite a good introductory link . . .
http://painting.about.com/od/rightleftbrain/a/Right_Brain.htm (http://painting.about.com/od/rightleftbrain/a/Right_Brain.htm)
Also, incidentally, do blow the dust off (or buy for a penny on Amazon): The Dragons of Eden, by Carl Sagan. A superb introduction to all and everything; much of it adaptable to haiku 'word exploding' (hairon: haiku theory, or essay).
i'm assuming the question of whether this poem of mine is a haiku or not has to do with its imaginative elements (blue apple, mirror-birth) and not the form of the poem (in this case: 3 lines, short-long-short, a kire/cut after the first line, creating two parts, and, as Paul Miller pointed out, a possibly strong, mysterious, ambiguous juxtaposition because of the word "it"—all standard-bearer elements and western traditions, in some way or another, since haiku pretty much began in the english language). if it is not the imaginative elements, then i am afraid pretty much nothing written in english that calls itself haiku will apply to whatever definition "lulu", and others, are holding so dear, whatever puritanical lamentations they have such sorrow and woe for.
this ku and the "blue apple" series (about 90** ku in total) was inspired, in some way or anther, i guess, by:
Jorge Luis Borges; magical realism; David Lynch; Ban'ya Natsuishi's Flying Pope series; Michael Pollan; frankenfood; genetics/modern science; Lewis Carroll; Adam & Eve/Genesis/knowledge/Satan; Haruo Shirane's "vertical axis, the movement across time"; Stanley Kubrick's films (wherein there is a mirror scene in each one, oftentimes during the most critical scenes); Johnny Appleseed; Snow White & the Seven Dwarves; surrealism; cubism; the mythological and the fantastic; Ban'ya Natsuishi's concept of "the totality of reality" (which includes the imagination, not just, or only, "direct experience"/objective reality); evolution; mystery and depth (yū gen); playfulness (with tradition, with the concepts of Nature/the Wild and with season); Bashō's imaginative, radical and non-traditional "old pond" ku and compositional philosophies; automatic writing, particularly that done by and promoted by Shiki and explained by Tsubouchi Nenten ("And for each topic, he composed 10 haiku as part of his formal compositional style. . . . Then, whenever he and his friends would gather, he lit a stick of incense, and they would write as many haiku as possible before the incense went out. This may seem merely playful—but the process requires intense concentration. As a result, something of the unconscious is revealed: this is similar to a kind of automatic writing, the automatic writing of the surrealist poets, I believe" [Poems of Consciousness, Richard Gilbert, 155] [interestingly enough, Kyoshi found this method "too playful"].
in addition, these quotes about the long history of imagination in haiku and how vital it is from Haruo Shirane's "Beyond the Haiku Moment" (http://www.haikupoet.com/definitions/beyond_the_haiku_moment.html) have made their inroads on me:
"The joy and pleasure of haikai was that it was imaginary literature . . . . [T]o create a new and unexpected world. . . . One could compose about one's daily life, about being an official in China, about being a warrior in the medieval period, or an aristocrat in the ancient period. The other participants in the haikai sequence joined you in that imaginary world or took you to places that you could reach on with your imagination.
In short, linked verse, both orthodox linked verse (renga) and its comic or casual version (haikai), was fundamentally imaginary."
"For Basho, it was necessary to experience everyday life, to travel, to expose oneself to the world as much as possible, so that the poet could reveal the world as it was. But it could also be fictional, something born of the imagination. In fact, you had to use your imagination to compose haikai, since it was very much about the ability to move from one world to another. Basho himself often rewrote his poetry: he would change the gender, the place, the time, the situation. The only thing that mattered was the effectiveness of the poetry, not whether it was faithful to the original experience."
Also the following from Janine Beichman's Masaoka Shiki, His Life and Works:
"Shiki found Bashō's work deficient in one area, however: he had not used imagination. In Some Remarks on Bashō, he wrote: "Basho's haiku speak only of what was around him [emphasis in original]. That is, his subject was either an emotion he felt subjectively or else natural scenes and human affairs that he observed objectively. This is of course admirable, but the fact that he discarded scenes which arise from imagination and are outside observation, as well as human affairs he had not experienced, shows that Basho's realm was rather small" (p77).
of course this has been proven to be historically a little off. Bashō did, at times, make up scenes (wrote of and about places he had not been to) and scenery, yet combined them with objective reality and simplicity. and so he did use imagination at times, though not to the extent, perhaps, Shiki would have liked, or that someone like Buson utilized at a much higher percent. this quote also shows that Shiki was not only or all about shasei and objective writing, but that using one's imagination was very important to him (and recently we have been reminded of this by Nenten [as mentioned above] and also by Kaneko Tohta in the new book Ikimonofūei (Poetic Composition on Living Things).
there's also this from Beichman's book:
"Four years later, in The Haiku Poet Buson, [Shiki] wrote of Bashō: He simply took himself as his basic poetic material and went no further than expressing the truth of objects related to him. In modern terms, such poverty of observation is really laughable.
Of all haiku poets, Shiki wrote in the same work, only Buson has used imagination successfully. In this lay his uniqueness.... Using imagination to write haiku, said Shiki, meant writing about what human beings cannot experience, what does not exist in reality, ancient things, places one has never visited, or societies one has never seen."
". . . Shiki's analysis treats the history of the haiku as a kind of evolution . . ."
and so i think this is where the "haiku vs haiku" (the unfortunate title of this thread) comes in. thinking of the haiku art form in such a way is exclusionary, closed, puritanical, not to mention antagonistic. it's a fundamentalist perception of, and approach to, haiku instead of an evolutionary one. i strongly disagree with this approach. if someone wants to call what they write haiku, so be it. there's nothing "sad" about it ("chibi575"'s word), nor should work that doesn't jive with some conservative definition "be encouraged to become its own genre (as the Japanese have named modern haiku, gendai haiku)". it's all part of one expanding web, one genre, one family, "expanding with each poem that's written" (Martin Lucas); nor is Japanese post-war haiku (gendai) considered a separate genre in Japan. that's perhaps wishful thinking (for some reason), but simply malarky. it's all one. a progression. an evolution.***
what the real and vital questions should be are: is it good poetry? is it quality? is it art?
i don't think i'm going out on a limb here to say that if one is only going to write haiku (and want everyone else to write haiku) based on a very specific and closed definition, and strike a pose of fundamental puritanicalism, or write haiku based on poll results of common characteristics, or the uninformed teachings of elementary school teachers (bless them), or some hyper-specific "way" or technique of some poet from centuries ago, or whatever else, then the poetry will more than likely be empty, trite, boring, disingenuous, cliche, pretentious, phony, lifeless, forgettable, and disposable.
those who are longing for haiku to be one thing, one kind of poetry, one kind of box—this mindset—seems contradictory to the entire haiku art form itself.
yes, experimental, avant-garde, nu haiku, or nu ku (new/naked ku), can be just as pretentious, and that's a sincere danger and something poets need to be mindful of, but it is a movement based on openness, excitement, playfulness, elasticity. . . . It's an evolutionary (not fundamentalist) view of haiku's extensive and amazing, and ever-expanding history, and is directly in tune with its fundamental nature of freshness, and experimentation—the idea of haiku being both a folk art and a radical/revolutionary art form, and one which challenges traditions—not one that's over-protective and putting on a coat of phony purity airs that has never existed in the first place.
as i mentioned at the beginning, the "blue apple" ku were a series, and my first at an attempt to take one topic and experiment with it. i have done others ("the queen of violets" and "the king of sharks"; and of course there is Ban'ya Natsuishi's "Flying Pope" series; John Sandbach's "invisible castle" series in his collection a dragonfly and facts; Chris Gordon has done likewise with his "Invisible Circus" and "Chinese Astronauts"; there are Tanya McDonald's "seven moons"; Michael Dylan Welch has played with "seven suns" and the "neon buddha"; Johannes S. Berg's "fun house" ku; the Gordon, McDonald, Welch and Berg can be found in Roadrunner and MASKS). i think it would be fun and exciting to see others play with this concept of personal mythology/topic and automatic/series writing. perhaps great things will come of it, or, perhaps more importantly, inspire new work by others.
i'd like the share the five ku* from that series that were selected by Ban'ya Natsuishi for issue #42 (April, 2009) of his Ginyu journal:
blue apple
it gives birth
to a mirror
cloudless
a day balanced
on the blue apple
in a pool
surrounding the blue apple
the tears of a crow
deep underground―
the blue apple reflecting
billions of suns
on the blue apple
the spider dreams dreams
in shades of blue
and two others from the series that i think are decent:
what if
the blue apple were
a blue rose
the blue apple
sending out waves
to a red apple
*edited: it was 5, not 7, and so two were removed
**not 20 like i originally posted but actually 90 (i was going off an edited document)
***some deletion, revision and additions here
Scott: Thanks for your wonderful explanation (I've learned a head and heartful and will read and re-read for inspiration and insight) and thanks for posting your additional "blue apple" sequence. I love "what if" (and "rhetorical") ku so your final
what if
the blue apple were
a blue rose
the blue apple
sending out waves
to a red apple
resonates strongly with me!
Much gratitude,
Al
All I can say is this is incredible work, and really helps to keep haiku fresh, whether other writers want to go this way or not, as good writers they will and absorb, and go their own creative way.
You've already mentioned surrealism, and of course, to me, came Rene Magritte's The Son of Man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Son_of_Man_%28Magritte%29
He may not have been a surrealist you were thinking of yourself, but a good haiku is a good haiku and adds to its already full vertical axis. ;-)
Thanks for explaining so much in depth, it's been a real treat, and an honour, especially as rightly or wrongly (I'll leave that to others) you are adding to the much-needed freshness and originality always required to keep an art form going.
all my best,
Alan
See Wallace Stevens' The Man With the Blue Guitar!
And, please stop passing up my comments on language philosophy as if they were so imbued with their surroundings that you didn't see them (Just a personal feeling of being miffed).
And btw, the haiku rambler is none other than the reincarnation of that man we all came to love, The Haiku Master!
Hi Jack,
Thanks re Wallace Steven's The Man With the Blue Guitar as I am not familar with that work and constantly want to learn more.
I personally find all your posts, both here, and elsewhere, not only useful and important, but as vital as medicine.
Keep posting! ;-)
Alan
p.s. Yes it is John, but he did get some powerful comments from you and Scott, so I'm grateful both to John Potts and the mysterious Lulu. ;-)
Quote from: Jack Galmitz on August 17, 2011, 01:42:35 PM
See Wallace Stevens' The Man With the Blue Guitar!
And, please stop passing up my comments on language philosophy as if they were so imbued with their surroundings that you didn't see them (Just a personal feeling of being miffed).
Thank you, Alan.
from the Borges story, The Library of Babel, which begins, "The Universe (which others call the Library) is composed of an indefinite, perhaps infinite number of hexagonal galleries...."
"In the vestibule there is a mirror, which faithfully duplicates appearances. Men often infer from this mirror that the Library is not infinite--if it were, what need would there be for that illusory replication? I prefer to dream that burnished surfaces are a figuration and promise of the infinite..."
So, in a nutshell, or a pea green boat, even, we are moving into a new haiku world. On the shoulders of a geophysical/kigo model, utilising; show not tell, kireji... and all the other fundamental haiku devices that make the original haiku form tick. These devices being our tools, to select from; perhaps carried over our shoulder on a stick as we walk off the mesa, like that Tarot fool, Carlos, out in old Mexico. Maybe even getting back home from Nutwood, like Rupert Bear, in time for tea! The idea of identifying levels of distinct consciousness. These 'other worlds' of mythic and mystic experience. Perchance, blending these transdimensional universes, eventually (or initially more like), whilst we focus our rose-coloured spectacles, our psychic goggles, on these strange new landscapes. Yes! I can dig that. Let's evolve. Haiku: Level-42. Cool.
in a flight of fancy—
the butterflies seem more
than their wings
-
You've got some interesting ideas going for you there, Scott. May the Force be with be with us all.
Scott, thanks for recognizing my "sad"-ness. I might add that I encourage out-of-the-haiku-box thinking as such, my "sad" comes from calling it in-the-box of haiku. Yet, poetry can (should?) be any darned thing... I saw a recent documentary on Herba and Dorthy Vogel, when asked what they considered art they would collect had two criteria: it had to be something that they liked by an artist they liked and it had to fit into their one bedroom New York City, appartment.
I love haiku... that pretty much sums my criterion.
ciao... and thanks for all the fish
Hi Chibi.
That's an interesting observation - the in/out box idea. It seems so cut and dried. So reassuringly black and white. I like it. However, a notion came to mind; how would this relate to orbital bodies around a planet? By which I mean, is there a possibility of haiku being haiku in some external relationship to your box, rather than actually being required to be in it? Perhaps budding off into other forms, eventually. You know; evolution and mutation, DNA jiggery-pokery, or some other transformational thingummyjiggeries which subsume natural mutation. I suspect there is, but how would this apply to little haiku and its formal classification in the schemas of linguistic sanity?
-
What do other readers of this interesting and heady thread reckon? Do share . . .
haikurambler,
Is pluto a planet? some scientist say yes, others say no, who is right? who is wrong?
I suspect individual haiku are like pluto. Was a plant, then wasn't a planet, all because the definition of what a planet is has changed. Will it change again in the future? Will pluto get its title back?
a haiku student, darrell
I promised myself not to post on this thread any more, but here is a quote from this morning, which I think is good to share.
Niels Bohr said,
"The opposite of a fact is a falsehood,
but the opposite of one profound truth
may very well be another profound truth."
Greetings from a sweltering humid Japan
Gabi
And now for something completely different... "chibiku":
SPAM
(tip of the hat to Cor)
I'd say Pluto was spelled with a capital 'P', Darrell ^_^ But, yes, good point. Let's do anything we like and call it 'haiku' - who knows, we may be able to fool a tadpole! Seriously, though, I do think we need to provide some sort of a compass, with a map, even. I mean; is an epigram a haiku because it is, typically, brief, you know, pithy with a succinct meaning? Is a snowdrop a thistle when we're not looking, or are they both plants and that's good enough for making soup out of? What (and how) do you reckon?
Quote from: Darrell on August 18, 2011, 06:23:39 PM
haikurambler,
Is pluto a planet? some scientist say yes, others say no, who is right? who is wrong?
I suspect individual haiku are like pluto. Was a plant, then wasn't a planet, all because the definition of what a planet is has changed. Will it change again in the future? Will pluto get its title back?
a haiku student, darrell
Yes, Gabi Greve, but what (on earth) does you mean? (puzzled)
Quote from: Gabi Greve on August 18, 2011, 07:31:06 PM
I promised myself not to post on this thread any more, but here is a quote from this morning, which I think is good to share.
Niels Bohr said,
"The opposite of a fact is a falsehood,
but the opposite of one profound truth
may very well be another profound truth."
Greetings from a sweltering humid Japan
Gabi
And your point is, Chibi575?
atomic
Quote from: chibi575 on August 18, 2011, 08:08:44 PM
And now for something completely different... "chibiku":
SPAM
(tip of the hat to Cor)