Kigo, ma, kireji, juxtaposition and of course brevity are some of the elements which haiku are known for. I wonder if for you there is a single element, or perhaps more than one, that has to be present in some form
for you to consider a given poem a haiku? What is the sine qua non of haiku?
Thank you for considering.
Dmitri
Dear Dmitri,
Thank you for your post!Quote from: Dmitri on November 10, 2021, 03:33:41 PM
Kigo, ma, kireji, juxtaposition and of course brevity are some of the elements which haiku are known for. I wonder if for you there is a single element, or perhaps more than one, that has to be present in some form
for you to consider a given poem a haiku? What is the sine qua non of haiku?
Thank you for considering.
Dmitri
It could be the overall effect of the seasonal touch, and the pairing of two ultra short phrases (one line and two line phrases). That might make haiku obvious above everything else.
Of course non-seasonal haikai verses, and hokku, have existed for many hundreds of years.
Perhaps it's all about an axis effect? I touched on this at my presentation at Haiku North America this year. Of course the type of axis that I use is different from both traditional and current use at times.
Here's a definition of axis, in general:What is the axis?The definition of an axis is a real or imaginary line on which something rotates, or a straight line around which things are evenly arranged. An example of axis is an imaginary line running through the earth on which the earth rotates. ... A main line of motion, development, etc.and from the same website, multiple definitions of axis:
https://www.yourdictionary.com/axiswarm regards,
Alan
Thanks Alan. So would you say that for you, if a very brief (approx. 17 syllables or less) poem does not
demonstrate a seasonal touch and/or a pairing of two very short phrases, it is not a haiku? And yet many
poems that appear in the journals do neither.
Dmitri
One of my all time favourite haiku:
せきをしてもひとり
— 尾崎放哉
Coughing, even:
alone
Hosai Ozaki (1885-1926)
Seki o / shite mo / hitori
Seki o shite mo hitori
3-3-3 pattern
"When haiku needs to overcome its shortness, a vital technique, kire (break) is used." —Ban'ya Natsuishi
Haiku started breaking away from the hokku model due to great social upheaval from the Industrial Revolution, two world wars, other conflicts, extreme urbanisation and a reduced agrarian society, and now the online revolution.
The above haiku isn't even the shortest from Japan.
It certainly has pairing, but no obvious 'seasoning'.
This haiku has seasoning but does it have pairing?
みちのくのつたなきさがの案山子かな
山口青邨
michinoku no tsutanaki saga no kakashi kana
in the Deep north
a scarecrow
with his poor fate
Seison Yamaguchi (1892-1988)
Haiku Dai-Saijiki (Comprehensive Haiku Saijiki), Kadokawa Shoten, Tokyo, 2006
Which kind of haiku do you like and prefer?
warm regards,
Alan
Quote from: Dmitri on November 11, 2021, 11:46:48 AM
Thanks Alan. So would you say that for you, if a very brief (approx. 17 syllables or less) poem does not
demonstrate a seasonal touch and/or a pairing of two very short phrases, it is not a haiku? And yet many
poems that appear in the journals do neither.
Dmitri
I realize the question may put some people on the spot. It is potentially very revealing (of how one sees
haiku), but I do think it is an interesting question, worth exploring.
Coughing, even:
alone
is one of my favorites too.
About it, one might say: "I don't know what [haiku] is, but I know it when I see it".
Dmitri,
Looking at poems published in a different journals one might come to the conclusion that brevity is the sine qua non of haiku-- at least it is the one element that a variety of work shares. I am sure that many readers and writers of haiku will say that a haiku must (usually via a cut of some sort) create that difficult to describe quality called Ma. Many haiku don't do that of course. I have a preference for those that do, but
don't reject those that don't. Similarly with seasonality.
For me, what is foremost is that a poem justifies its extreme brevity by being memorable, and moving in some way-- humorous, surprising, poignant, etc. I start from there. My haiku/not haiku filter is not very strong, but it does exist. Hard to look at something 17 syllables long or even shorter and not, at least in the back of one's mind, think is this haiku? I don't always answer the question.
But I agree-- it would be interesting to know what others honestly think/feel about your question.
And maybe Alan is right in his suggestion that it is a question of what one prefers.
Is someone willing to talk about that?
While waiting for Dmitri to respond, I wonder if you could give examples of what works for you, and that you recognise as haiku?
Regarding my own taste or recognition of haiku, it's very wide, from 'classic' 575/kigo/kire to gendai, and general free verse haiku.
Here's a mostly haiku issue I brought out:
The Blo͞o Outlier Journal Winter Issue 2020 (Issue #1) ed. Alan Summers
https://bloooutlierjournal.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-bloo-outlier-journal-winter-issue.html
And recent(ish) haikai pamphlets, two solo collections and one collaborative:
https://area17.blogspot.com/2020/06/recent-haiku-poetry-collections-by-alan.html
Here's my judge's report of a haiku contest:
https://area17.blogspot.com/2013/08/extended-judges-report-for-2013-world.html
There is no favourite haikai journal, I read is/let (and Roadrunner now on hiatus); loved RAW NerVZ (Canadian journal) despite reading 'trad' haiku previously; Modern Haiku; Presence; Frogpond; Whiptail; Heron's Nest; antantantantant; Blithe Spirit etc...
Basically it's how two images pivot or pirouette around each other in a tight constraint, and have something even remotely haiku. If you attended
Haiku North America, you would have seen my Schrödinger's MA
and the segue axis presentation (video and pdf up in a month or two), and the Panel I led also gave some indication of my preferences.
So I will be fascinated seeing examples by you, as well as by other poets, whom I hope will post here.
Alan
Quote from: meghalls on November 12, 2021, 10:09:52 AM
Dmitri,
Looking at poems published in a different journals one might come to the conclusion that brevity is the sine qua non of haiku-- at least it is the one element that a variety of work shares. I am sure that many readers and writers of haiku will say that a haiku must (usually via a cut of some sort) create that difficult to describe quality called Ma. Many haiku don't do that of course. I have a preference for those that do, but
don't reject those that don't. Similarly with seasonality.
For me, what is foremost is that a poem justifies its extreme brevity by being memorable, and moving in some way-- humorous, surprising, poignant, etc. I start from there. My haiku/not haiku filter is not very strong, but it does exist. Hard to look at something 17 syllables long or even shorter and not, at least in the back of one's mind, think is this haiku? I don't always answer the question.
But I agree-- it would be interesting to know what others honestly think/feel about your question.
And maybe Alan is right in his suggestion that it is a question of what one prefers.
Is someone willing to talk about that?
Yes, thank you. I was (I am) waiting for other responses.
Hi Dmitri
Quote from: Dmitri on November 15, 2021, 06:32:44 AM
Yes, thank you. I was (I am) waiting for other responses.
I do hope others respond, but in the meantime do any poems you have read meet your requirement?
Could you give examples of haiku by others, and one or two by your good self?
I tend to write across the spectrum of haiku. So here's a few recent examples:
hearsay tumbling leaves into a teapot's brew again yesterdayAlan Summers
Third prize
Foreign Section, First Bulgarian Contemporary (Gendai) Contest
hazelnut picking
the child in a memory puts
my hand to the moon
Alan Summers
Honourable Mention, Autumn Moon Haiku Contest 2021
buddha rays
the blue-eyed-grass
in each sunrise Alan Summers
Tinywords photo prompt (August 2021)
unexpected snow...
doves interweave
into wedding dressesAlan Summers
Grandmother's Pearls: An Anthology of Dream Poems
ed. Alexis Rotella
(Jade Mountain Press, 2021)
And a duostich:
winter's end
a wardrobe slaps closedAlan Summers
Tinywords issue 21.1 March 2021
And of course The Heron's Nest online quarter and print Annual has a large panel of editors where each haiku has to gather several votes to appear!
From Haiku 21 (eds. Gurga and Metz)
These (below) do not seem to have easily recognized haiku features, unless, in some cases, you consider being able to read them in two or more ways a form of juxtaposition— collapsed juxtaposition or something-- as in Brad Bennett's
where potholes were sparrows Which can also be read as:
where potholes were—
sparrows
Day of the Dead year
Marilyn Ashbaugh
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
and numerous others.
What makes them haiku in your opinion?
Hi Dmitri,
A few thoughts and links spread over the next few posts.Quote from: Dmitri on November 17, 2021, 12:58:26 PM
From Haiku 21 (eds. Gurga and Metz)
These (below) do not seem to have easily recognized haiku features, unless, in some cases, you consider being able to read them in two or more ways a form of juxtaposition— collapsed juxtaposition or something-- as in Brad Bennett's
where potholes were sparrows Which can also be read as:
where potholes were—
sparrows
Day of the Dead year
Marilyn Ashbaugh
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
and numerous others.
What makes them haiku in your opinion?
First of all, an indirect answer, and getting some context:Haiku 21: an anthology of contemporary English-language haiku
Edited by Lee Gurga and Scott Metz
With an introduction by the editors
Modern Haiku Press, 2011
Over 600 haiku by more than 200 poets.
In forms ranging from monostich to multilayer to interlinear spaces, Haiku 21 reveals a shift in haiku writing in English today. Along with typically haikuesque sensibilities come fleeting remarks, cosmic wonders, whimsies, dissonances, gritty and elegant meldings with nature, veritable koans. An eye-opening collection.
—Hiroaki Sato
http://www.modernhaiku.org/mhbooks/Haiku21.html
Book Review by Ron Silliman
"...it's not a surprise particularly to discover that there is a lot of excellent writing to be found in an anthology like Haiku 21: An Anthology of Contemporary English-Language Haiku... It's a fascinating, albeit problematic, collection.
What's problematic are the implications of its scale. The book includes, in a 205-page volume, just 153 of which are devoted directly to poetry, 212 poets and their works from the first decade of the present millennium."
It is worth reading the whole review to get these two quotes into context:
https://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-would-poet-who-writes-1000-page.html
About and putting Ron Silliman into context:
RON SILLIMAN has written and edited 40 books, and had his poetry and criticism translated into 16 languages. Silliman was a 2012 Kelly Writers House Fellow, the 2010 recipient of the Levinson Prize from the Poetry Foundation, a 2003 Literary Fellow of the National Endowment for the Arts, a 2002 Fellow of the Pennsylvania Arts Council, and a 1998 Pew Fellow in the Arts. Silliman has a plaque in the walk dedicated to poetry in his home town of Berkeley and a sculpture in the Transit Center of Bury, Lancaster, a part of the Irwell Sculpture Trail. He lives in Chester County, Pennsylvania and teaches at the University of Pennsylvania.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/ron-silliman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Silliman
His critique of the William Carlos Williams Award finalists – the term that the Poetry Society of America prefers for those books that also deserve some special attention, included Roberta Beary's haiku collection: The Unworn Necklace is also worth reading:
https://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mirrors/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/search/label/Roberta%20Beary
The editors, I guess, realised that a lot of other poets writing haiku were left out, or wanted to capture a further exceptional 100 haiku each year, almost as an addendum to the first "21st Century haiku"
Haiku 2014
Edited by by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga
Modern Haiku Press, 2014
Haiku 2015
Edited by by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga
Modern Haiku Press, 2015
Haiku 2016
Edited by by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga
Modern Haiku Press, 2016
Haiku 2020
Edited by by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga
Modern Haiku Press, 2020
Haiku 2021
Edited by by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga
Modern Haiku Press, 2021
http://www.modernhaiku.org/mhbooks/index.html
I do have the Modern Haiku Press anthology, but can't locate it at present, as I must have around ten thousand haiku publications in various locales inside and outside my home.
Although I did find both "the acorn book of contemporary haiku" which is controversial but also long forgotten at the same time and edited by Lucien Stryk and Kevin Bailey (acorn book company 2000), and Modern Haiku Press mini-anthologies Haiku 2014; 2015; and 2016.
I opened up "the acorn book of contemporary haiku" and found haikai by a very famous non-haiku poet Adrian Henri:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Henri
for the River Mersey
today it is a yellow river
no moon
no drunk poets drowning
Adrian Henri
We know he is referring to a very famous Chinese poet Li Bai (701-762) so this does follow the classic honkadori model.
Another one by him:
for Elizabeth
morning
your red nylon mac
blown like a poppy across Hardman St.
Hardman Street:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hardman-street-cafe-bar-changed-17891928
Again, using haikai asthetics, is it a Scouse utamakura — places that many people are likely to know or a Scouse version of haimakura — places that can also be known via a poem, or a little of both? And of course it could reference racism back then, and even now, and the World Wars, where bigotry has not changed. Very Shirane vertical axis.
But first, before I look at your examples:
"Why haiku is different and Basho never wrote them in English"
https://area17.blogspot.com/2018/11/why-haiku-is-different-and-basho-never.html
Okay, I'll look at Brad Bennett's haiku. There seem to be two versions offered by you?
where potholes were sparrows
where potholes were—
sparrows
I recall publishing a haiku about sparrows dustbathing, as it used to be a common site down lanes and residential roads, in my childhood. As I lost a lot of records due to a laptop being stolen, it's gone, but this reminded me of my own haiku.
It feels like a Summer haiku to me, and a straightforward haiku, so I'll see about something that isn't.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johannes S. H. Bjerg
Johannes S. H. Bjerg:
http://www.worldhaiku.net/poetry/denmark/BJERG.PDF
Undefinable
by Johannes S. H. Bjerg
https://livinghaikuanthology.com/poets-on-haiku/defining-haiku/3182-undefinable-by-johannes-s-h-bjerg.html
This preempts covid-19 and its varients, but we did have bird flu at least twice in the 20th Century.
"Stigma
Backyard poultry production was viewed as "traditional Asian" agricultural practices that contrasted with modern commercial poultry production and seen as a threat to biosecurity. Backyard production appeared to hold greater risk than commercial production due to lack of biosecurity and close contact with humans, though HPAI spread in intensively raised flocks was greater due to high density rearing and genetic homogeneity. Asian culture itself was blamed as the reason why certain interventions, such as those that only looked at placed-based interventions, would fail without looking for a multifaceted solutions."
As Bjerg is Danish, I'm guessing this refers to 2020 in particular:
Bird Flu in 2020
By the end of 2020 several outbreaks of Avian flu of various varieties were reported in Europe. Since mid-October several European countries, including Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands, Sweden, and the United Kingdom have reported outbreaks of highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) viruses, mostly in wild birds.
Both quotes from "Avian influenza" WIKIPEDIA
NHS site (National Health Service, UK)
Bird flu, or avian flu, is an infectious type of influenza that spreads among birds. In rare cases, it can affect humans.
There are lots of different strains of bird flu virus. Most of them don't infect humans. But there are 4 strains that have caused concern in recent years:
H5N1 (since 1997)
H7N9 (since 2013)
H5N6 (since 2014)
H5N8 (since 2016)
We know, from covid-19, how isolated many people were, even moreso than in the pre-covid-19 'abnormal' existance we lived, nothing was ever normal.
re:
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johannes S. H. Bjerg (Denmark)
This could be someone elderly, isolated, relying on the news media, and getting facts wrong amongst the scaremongering, racism, biased news outlets perhaps.
An armchair traveller witnessing the tsunami on television, just a fairly big wave at first, then all the various viruses etc... from avian flu, swine flu, coronovirus etc...
It feels deeply poignant and filled with vertical axis.
Is it haiku?
Well it depends on our individual definitions of haiku or definitions and rules set out by others.
As an anthologist we need to look beyond the policing of creative writing, poetry, haiku etc...
This could even be said to be the first level of shasei, which is seeing something firsthand (chair by the window) and sketching in words something seen (in this case a mix of television news, and birds outside, in trees and in the sky).
Just a few thoughts.
From Haiku 2014, the first addition to Haiku 21.
https://www.modernhaiku.org/mhbooks/Haiku2014.html
Haiku 2014
Modern Haiku Press
Winner of the Haiku Foundation Touchstone Award.
The anthology booklet contains some great quotes about the mother anthology Haiku 21: an anthology of contemporary English-language haiku
"a public nuisance"
Klaus-Dieter Wirth
Chrysanthemum Nr. 13. April 2013
http://www.chrysanthemum-haiku.net/media/Chrysanthemum_13.pdf
"21st century haiku tottering around the nihilistic vortex at the edge of the future."
anonymous reviewer
"This sea change may simply leave some poets at sea."
Michael Dylan Welch, Modern Haiku 43.2
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Haiku21-2011.html
Alan, I appreciate your generosity and enthusiasm.
I should have been more clear: the anthology from which I drew the haiku is the recent
Haiku 2021. A random sampling of poems that some will some won't consider haiku I'm guessing.
I presented the Brad Bennett piece first as it appeared, next as an alternative way it could be read,
a technique many use, providing ambiguity in how a haiku may be read.
You write:
Is it haiku?
Well it depends on our individual definitions of haiku or definitions and rules set out by others.
This is kind of what I am getting at, but rather than ask what is someone' definition of haiku, I am asking if there is some element without which it is not haiku. Maybe the questions are one and the same in th end.
But you bring up an interesting thing when you say "it depends on our individual definitions". Can't remember who said it, but is it true then that haiku is whatever (someone) wants it to be?
I do wonder what others think, but I see, as others have noted, that discussions of this sort are a thing of the past.
To avoid further confusion over
Haiku 21: an anthology of contemporary English-language haiku (published in 2011) and
Haiku 2021 (published in 2021), here is the link to the current anthology we are discussing:
https://www.modernhaiku.org/mhbooks/Haiku2021.html
re the 100 best haiku by 100 haiku writers anthologies (booklets) by Scott Metz & Lee Gurga (Modern Haiku Press) I will have to declare that although I did not appear in the full anthology
"Haiku 21: an anthology of contemporary English-language haiku" (2021) I did appear both in the
Haiku 2014, and many of the subsequent ones, including this year's
Haiku 2021 (Modern Haiku Press 2021).
thunder
I slide a kigo
into the gun
Alan Summers
First publication credit: tinywords 20.2 (November 2020)
Anthology: Haiku 2021 ed. Scott Metz & Lee Gurga (Modern Haiku Press, 2021)
Feature: 2021 Southern California Haiku Study Group Zoom Presentation
Feature: re:Virals 283 (February 2021)
The Haiku Foundation's weekly poem commentary feature on some of the finest haiku ever written in English: https://thehaikufoundation.org/revirals-282/
.
night crows
the haystacks lose
their moonlight
Alan Summers
Publication Credit: Wild Plum 1:1 (Spring & Summer 2015)
Anthology Credits: Haiku 2016 ed. Scott Metz & Lee Gurga (Modern Haiku Press, 2016)
Behind the Tree Line ed. Gabriel Sawicki (2015)
.
night of small colour
a part of the underworld
becomes one heron
Alan Summers
Publication Credit: Modern Haiku Vol. 45.2 Summer 2014 ed. Paul Miller
Feature: Brass Bell Showcase: Alan Summers (July 2015)
Anthology credits: Haiku 2015 (Modern Haiku Press, 2015) ed. Lee Gurga and Scott Metz
Yanty's Butterfly Haiku Nook: An Anthology (2016)
Poetry as Consciousness - Haiku Forests, Space of Mind, and an Ethics of FreedomAuthor: Richard Gilbert Illustrator: Sabine Miller. ISBN978-4-86330-189-4 Pub. Keibunsha (2018, Japan)
.
ground zero into the new friend's story
Publication credit:Masks 4 (Roadrunner 12.3 – December 2012) ed. Scott Metz
Anthology credits: in fear of dancing: The Red Moon Anthology of English-Language Haiku 2013Haiku 2014 ed. Scott Metz & Lee Gurga, Modern Haiku Press, 2014
(Joint Winner, The Touchstone Distinguished Books Award 2014)
.
Regarding:"Can't remember who said it, but is it true then that haiku is whatever (someone) wants it to be?"It's become a meme now, or an urban myth. If it reflected reality hardly anyone would be allowed to write haiku from the 1890s (when it first started) onwards.
re:"I do wonder what others think, but I see, as others have noted, that discussions of this sort are a thing of the past."Everything is the past, even right now, scientifically proven. We exist in the past in many ways, perhaps striving to attain the present?
re:"This is kind of what I am getting at, but rather than ask what is someone's definition of haiku, I am asking if there is some element without which it is not haiku. Maybe the questions are one and the same in th end."Paraphrasing you:[Is there] some element without which it is not haiku.
I am sure there is.
If a journal refused to publish a submission, and some have had rejections of over 100 times, though eventually been taken, that could be considered one criteria.
But who sits as judge over all of us and the poems we consider as haiku?
Rather than see the negative about haiku, I like to see how each person makes a poem sing, and gets me to gladly recognise it as a haiku.
warm regards,
Alan
p.s.I hope others respond whether you have been reading/writing haiku only recently or for a number of years.
Quote from: Dmitri on November 18, 2021, 10:15:34 AM
Alan, I appreciate your generosity and enthusiasm.
I should have been more clear: the anthology from which I drew the haiku is the recent
Haiku 2021. A random sampling of poems that some will some won't consider haiku I'm guessing.
I presented the Brad Bennett piece first as it appeared, next as an alternative way it could be read,
a technique many use, providing ambiguity in how a haiku may be read.
You write:
Is it haiku?
Well it depends on our individual definitions of haiku or definitions and rules set out by others.
This is kind of what I am getting at, but rather than ask what is someone' definition of haiku, I am asking if there is some element without which it is not haiku. Maybe the questions are one and the same in th end.
But you bring up an interesting thing when you say "it depends on our individual definitions". Can't remember who said it, but is it true then that haiku is whatever (someone) wants it to be?
I do wonder what others think, but I see, as others have noted, that discussions of this sort are a thing of the past.
hi Alan,
just had to say i really like bjerg's piece that you elaborated on. i really like knowing the backstory on pieces like this. thank you for that discussion.
a thought i had about bjerg's piece was that the fragment about the virus being a bird could have spoken to the idea that it is in the air like a bird as well as the idea that it is ephemeral like a bird:::here one minute and taken flight the next.
enjoyed the two links concerning the publication. brought home the fact that there are indeed at least two ways to read a haiku. or was the first one tongue-in-cheek? i enjoy michael dylan welch's article. and had to remind myself it was around 2011 that it was written. what he says still holds true.
i think that as readers of any written work we need to be mindful of thinking while we read. what is read on first reading can change as we think about it. like brad bennet. like bjerg. like any of us who write haikai.
if we look for that one element that makes a haiku, we are limiting ourselves both as readers and writers.
i'm reminded of what you wrote in the beginner's section here when you said that you knew you shouldn't like her poem for a variety of reasons which you delineated, but in the end, you did like it. and isn't that the open mindedness that we should be writing and reading with? because otherwise we will all be looking for the magic recipe of form and ignoring everything else that has merit.
off my soapbox..
lorraine
Hi all, new to the forum but not to haiku.
For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
And this is not achieved in the standard western modes of simile or metaphor, the frog is not like the sound of water, neither is the sound of water identified as the frog. The frog and the water coexist, and by being present in the same haiku space, they create a new whole, a complex image of (part of) the world that leads the reader to a third element, silence as defined by sound.
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 02:27:30 AM
Hi all, new to the forum but not to haiku.
For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
And this is not achieved in the standard western modes of simile or metaphor, the frog is not like the sound of water, neither is the sound of water identified as the frog. The frog and the water coexist, and by being present in the same haiku space, they create a new whole, a complex image of (part of) the world that leads the reader to a third element, silence as defined by sound.
so. . .do the two things being juxed have to be in the same venue—ie:::water/pond/frog? or do you allow moments of "this reminds me of?" can't tell from your example.
lorraine
Quote from: Lorraine Pester on November 19, 2021, 05:55:16 AM
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 02:27:30 AM
Hi all, new to the forum but not to haiku.
For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
And this is not achieved in the standard western modes of simile or metaphor, the frog is not like the sound of water, neither is the sound of water identified as the frog. The frog and the water coexist, and by being present in the same haiku space, they create a new whole, a complex image of (part of) the world that leads the reader to a third element, silence as defined by sound.
so. . .do the two things being juxed have to be in the same venue—ie:::water/pond/frog? or do you allow moments of "this reminds me of?" can't tell from your example.
lorraine
I chose the frog because of its ubiquity, but often the things juxtaposed have no easily apparent relationship. Like in this Issa haiku:
nabe hitotsu / yanagi ippon mo / kore mo harua pot
a willow –
it's spring
Pot and willow inhabit separate spheres, except in Issa's imaginative apprehension of coming spring.
Of course, this is my subjective/objective reading.
Hi Billy,
Are you the Irish poet published by Shearsman, or the Irish poet published by Dedalus Press? Or both! <grin>
https://www.shearsman.com/store/Billy-Mills-Lares-Manes-Collected-Poems-p102838971
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/nov/07/poem-of-the-week-billy-mills
seven of your lockdown haiku from your ongoing
Very Far After project[/b]
Local Wonders: Poems of our immediate surrounds (17th November) Dedalus Press
https://www.dedaluspress.com/product/local-wonders/
An analogy re haiku is interesting, I do see this a lot, if you mean this definition:
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarificationThe frog hokku reminds me of the Queenslander I rented, with frogs outside in and around the plastic tubing and regularly appearing in my toilet bowl, where I had to rescue them. Lovely critters.
Was the frog or frogs (we don't know) and pond all imaginary though? But yes, one thing causing a sound in or on another thing and oddly becoming one is both intriguing and unsettling, a bit like roadkill, or the Aussie season when car drivers would try to flatten as many cane toads as possible. Ugly critters, with half a dozen deadly toxins in their back that could eject as far as six feet, but rather fond of them too. But they became one with the road, which was a horrible sight. And the same for kangaroos in the Northern Territory while driving at night with big vehicles, coaches or road trains, where they became one with the wheel arches and you had to stop and scrape them off.
I guess due to the unusual brevity (after all haiku came from a starting stanza) it produces unusual effects such as "near-metaphor/simile" without even trying?
warm regards,
Alan
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 02:27:30 AM
Hi all, new to the forum but not to haiku.
For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
And this is not achieved in the standard western modes of simile or metaphor, the frog is not like the sound of water, neither is the sound of water identified as the frog. The frog and the water coexist, and by being present in the same haiku space, they create a new whole, a complex image of (part of) the world that leads the reader to a third element, silence as defined by sound.
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
Quote from: AlanSummers on November 19, 2021, 06:51:37 AM
Hi Billy,
Are you the Irish poet published by Shearsman, or the Irish poet published by Dedalus Press? Or both! <grin>
https://www.shearsman.com/store/Billy-Mills-Lares-Manes-Collected-Poems-p102838971
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/nov/07/poem-of-the-week-billy-mills
seven of your lockdown haiku from your ongoing Very Far After project[/b]
Local Wonders: Poems of our immediate surrounds (17th November) Dedalus Press
https://www.dedaluspress.com/product/local-wonders/
An analogy re haiku is interesting, I do see this a lot, if you mean this definition:
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification
The frog hokku reminds me of the Queenslander I rented, with frogs outside in and around the plastic tubing and regularly appearing in my toilet bowl, where I had to rescue them. Lovely critters.
Was the frog or frogs (we don't know) and pond all imaginary though? But yes, one thing causing a sound in or on another thing and oddly becoming one is both intriguing and unsettling, a bit like roadkill, or the Aussie season when car drivers would try to flatten as many cane toads as possible. Ugly critters, with half a dozen deadly toxins in their back that could eject as far as six feet, but rather fond of them too. But they became one with the road, which was a horrible sight. And the same for kangaroos in the Northern Territory while driving at night with big vehicles, coaches or road trains, where they became one with the wheel arches and you had to stop and scrape them off.
I guess due to the unusual brevity (after all haiku came from a starting stanza) it produces unusual effects such as "near-metaphor/simile" without even trying?
warm regards,
Alan
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 02:27:30 AM
Hi all, new to the forum but not to haiku.
For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
And this is not achieved in the standard western modes of simile or metaphor, the frog is not like the sound of water, neither is the sound of water identified as the frog. The frog and the water coexist, and by being present in the same haiku space, they create a new whole, a complex image of (part of) the world that leads the reader to a third element, silence as defined by sound.
They're all me.
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
hi billy,
still confused. in the issa poem you quoted, where is the music or "sound that is made" that you say is necessary for a haiku?
or am i just dense?
lorraine
Quote from: Lorraine Pester on November 19, 2021, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
hi billy,
still confused. in the issa poem you quoted, where is the music or "sound that is made" that you say is necessary for a haiku?
or am i just dense?
lorraine
nabe hitotsu / yanagi ippon mo / kore mo haru
There's assonance in the repeated "na naomi ha" sounds and the "to post more kind mo". Pretty much impossible to translate.
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 10:18:04 AM
Quote from: Lorraine Pester on November 19, 2021, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
hi billy,
still confused. in the issa poem you quoted, where is the music or "sound that is made" that you say is necessary for a haiku?
or am i just dense?
lorraine
nabe hitotsu / yanagi ippon mo / kore mo haru
There's assonance in the repeated "na naomi ha" sounds and the "to post more kind mo". Pretty much impossible to translate.
so it's something that i, not a translator, could not appreciate.
so. . .how bout one in good old english that meets that desire of musicality?
lorraine
Hi Dmitri,re the poems below:Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
I don't love them, and are they innovative, or innovative enough, to be in the Haiku 2021 anthology? That's an interesting question.
Another question might be, is this one.Do Japanese haiku, and I don't mean hokku,
but Japanese haiku that 'started' in the 1890s, that didn't really get going, despite the Black Ships, until World War Two,
really stand up to Western or non-Japanese haiku standards, rules, guidelines, or dictats, opinions etc...?Here's two haiku, or are they haiku?short winter day things inside the examination room
winter grass stepping on something strange
re the two quoted haiku, and we need to give the correct spelling and presentation of the Danish poet's name:
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johannes S.H. Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
I feel the one by Bjerg is more of a level one shasei, but with a nod to the other levels.
Is the break, cut, or juxtaposition here?
i.e.
from her chair by the window
// she says the virus is a bird
Who is the narrator, is it the author, or the author capturing another person, or acting as a reliable or unreliable narrator etc...?
Is the first 'half' a context setting by the narrator or narrator-protagonist or poem's author, and the second half by the narrator only?
I can easily see that the person has mistakenly got the details about avian flu incorrect, see my earlier post, and blurred bad news reporting and conspiracy and less detailed research into one, or perhaps the "the virus is a bird" is just that, Avian Flu?
We have certainly seen some bizarre attitudes and definitions and opinions about the current pandemic and its siblings are similar.
Which leads us to the next one.
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
Intriguingly both poets have also been co-editors, albeit in two different journals, go figure.
It has overt vertical axis, so nods to Shirane's groundbreaking article and book about the spurious haiku moment, as well as alerting us to depth to our haiku, and literary allusions.
Are they musical? Well it might depend on your definition of music. Both verses definitely have rhythm:
from her chair / by the window/ she says the virus / is a bird
ex it wen dy from the pet er pan de micI'd say the first one is a complete rhythmic unit though the second one feels it requires a continuance, which is normal in any poem.
It's been said, and I won't quote sources, that experienced Japanese haikai poets (hokku and haiku) do not require "kire" as in they do not need to incorporate kireji.
As non-Japanese haiku poets, surely we don't require juxtaposition then? It's just an option. We have options for haiku just as much as someone has an option to write a prose novel or a verse novel with or without certain poetic devices etc...
So are we only talking about non-Japanese haiku, and do we only give examples of Japanese hokku but not Japanese haiku?
Three great writers helped promote make certain current languages the main language.
We have hokku writer and renga and renku expert Basho (Japanese over Chinese courtly language) and Chaucer and Shakespeare making English the lead language over French etc...
The game is afoot (Shakespeare), and murder will out ('
Mordre wol out' around 1290 which Chaucer used twice to great effect).
Hi Billy,
Ah Shearsman, so possible we know certain poets in common re London, Bradford on Avon, City of Bath etc...
You said, about the quoted poems:"In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least."Both are about viruses, one is Avian Flu, and the other one is Covid-19 and family. The second one might refer to the infamous British Health Minister (for various reasons) who was called
Peter Pandemic:
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1282441/Charlie-Brooker-Antiviral-Wipe-Matt-Hancock-Peter-Pandemic-joke-BBC-video
Haiku is a peculiar bird, to continue with the bird theme, and is a genre but has form (pun intended) and an invisible form more potent than its perceived external form. Also, is haiku poetry, or prose, or in-between, or its own thing entirely? I'm talking about non-Japanese haikai of course, which often has its own musical shape.
Both haiku would fit easily into other types of poetry, to my mind, and even provide lyrical support to a song or two. But haiku are or derived from starting stanzas, so they are deliberate in their incompleteness, where the rest used to be within the following verse and despite losing linear narrative, would continue as ghost rhythm throughout the rest of the renga or renku poem.
Alan
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
Quote from: Lorraine Pester on November 19, 2021, 12:05:52 PM
so it's something that i, not a translator, could not appreciate.
so. . .how bout one in good old english that meets that desire of musicality?
lorraine
Hi Lorraine
Take this one by Alan S above:
thunder
I slide a kigo
into the gun
there are some really nice sound patterns here: the repeated 'u' sound in 'thunder/gun', the same for 'I' in 'I/slide' really lift it to another level.
Quote from: AlanSummers on November 19, 2021, 01:21:03 PM
Hi Billy,
Ah Shearsman, so possible we know certain poets in common re London, Bradford on Avon, City of Bath etc...
You said, about the quoted poems:
"In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least."
Both are about viruses, one is Avian Flu, and the other one is Covid-19 and family. The second one might refer to the infamous British Health Minister (for various reasons) who was called Peter Pandemic:
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1282441/Charlie-Brooker-Antiviral-Wipe-Matt-Hancock-Peter-Pandemic-joke-BBC-video
Haiku is a peculiar bird, to continue with the bird theme, and is a genre but has form (pun intended) and an invisible form more potent than its perceived external form. Also, is haiku poetry, or prose, or in-between, or its own thing entirely? I'm talking about non-Japanese haikai of course, which often has its own musical shape.
Both haiku would fit easily into other types of poetry, to my mind, and even provide lyrical support to a song or two. But haiku are or derived from starting stanzas, so they are deliberate in their incompleteness, where the rest used to be within the following verse and despite losing linear narrative, would continue as ghost rhythm throughout the rest of the renga or renku poem.
Alan
Quote from: Billy Mills on November 19, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: Dmitri on November 19, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Billy Mills says: For me, one thing that all good haiku do is to produce an analogy by means of juxtaposition, two or more (usually two) disparate things brought together that open the readers mind in some way.
So, for you, would you say the following two examples, since they do not provide a juxtaposition of two disparate things, are not haiku? And please note, I am not disputing the merit of each piece. Buit just trying to be clear, and further the conversation.
from her chair by the window she says the virus is a bird
Johnannes Bjerg
exit wendy from the peter pandemic
Lorin Ford
In their own way, I think they are juxtaposing, but they may not be haiku. The first sets virus and bird together to produce an image; in the second the idea of a peter pandemic is a kind of metaphor, as pandemics of people don't literally exist.
For me they both lack one basic aspect of any poem, which is to do with the sounds they make. There's no real music, for me t least.
I'm afraid I lazily use 'haiku' for both haiku proper and for hokku, and for Japanese and non-Japanese poems in the form. And I do think of them as poetry, and of poetry as having to do both with sense and sound.