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In-Depth Discussions => In-Depth Haiku: Free Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lorraine Pester on May 29, 2021, 06:33:30 PM

Title: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on May 29, 2021, 06:33:30 PM


okay.

the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week.

in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

then there’s open form poetry, that seems to result in similarities.

are my observations valid?

and. . .just as free verse can be incorporated into zuihitsu, am i correct in assuming that deliberately incorporating organic form elements would significantly enhance the fragmentary style of zuihitsu?

conversation please

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 05, 2021, 09:06:44 AM
Hi Lorraine,

A very interesting question and observation in your post.

Quote
the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week. 

I don't know what modules are used in this particular class and so, my response is mainly to do with a basic understanding of "organic form poetry".


Quote
in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

You make a good point about zuihitsu here and my answer would be a big yes, in as much as "organic form poetry" is seen as something that is "shaped" not "structured" by form (Coleridge) and that it is "exploratory" (Levertov). But most of all, I would say that what is appealing about such unstructured and exploratory form is what Hopkins calls "instress" (actual experience) and "inscape" (uniqueness, not repeated).

So, in as far as zuihitsu is exploratory, not structured but shaped and evolving and it has an unique motif , perspective and use of language, it is similar to "organic form poetry."

As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.

So yes, your observations are valid and thought-provoking too.

Enjoyed this too!



Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: flowerfox on June 05, 2021, 11:43:41 AM
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

Thankyou in advance.
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 05, 2021, 12:14:10 PM
Hi Lorraine,

A very interesting question and observation in your post.

Quote
the “beyond the environment” essay writing class i’m taking through emergence magazine is going to feature poetry this coming week. 

I don't know what modules are used in this particular class and so, my response is mainly to do with a basic understanding of "organic form poetry".


Quote
in preparation for the class, materials that center around organic form poetry have been read.

it strikes me that the essence of the process of writing organic form poetry is very similar to zuihitsu and the outcome is similar.

You make a good point about zuihitsu here and my answer would be a big yes, in as much as "organic form poetry" is seen as something that is "shaped" not "structured" by form (Coleridge) and that it is "exploratory" (Levertov). But most of all, I would say that what is appealing about such unstructured and exploratory form is what Hopkins calls "instress" (actual experience) and "inscape" (uniqueness, not repeated).

So, in as far as zuihitsu is exploratory, not structured but shaped and evolving and it has an unique motif , perspective and use of language, it is similar to "organic form poetry."

As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.

So yes, your observations are valid and thought-provoking too.

Enjoyed this too!

hi pilgrim,

i swear you and i have been reading similar information. coleridge. levertov. gerald manley hopkins.

for carol::no link, but google poetry foundation essay on poetic theory “some notes on organic form “ by denise levertov.

back to you, pilgrim:

the above mentioned essay by levertov was only briefly mentioned by the person who was running the class. however, i found in it the basis that made best sense for addressing the structure of organic poetry which you mention.

not sure what others got out of a fairly choppy presentation by a Dine poet (native american poet who primarily uses native american language processing to write their poetry) but i just followed the google breadcrumbs to yet another essay.

for carol:::again, google poetry foundation essay on poetic theory “projective verse” by charles olson

back to you, pilgrim:::

projective verse :::appears to me that the main element in utilizing it has to do with the actual line length and structure of a poem being dictated by the length of the poet’s breath as he writes the line as he would speak it (so the poet’s speech patterns become the shaping factor of each line of each poem?) and also the way it sounds to the ear when read aloud. so that rhyme of all sorts. rhythm. the way syllables act. will all be of primary importance to this way of writing. so that the artificial forms created to use these elements (i think of meter,accent, used in writing sonnets for example) are to be eschewed.

william carlos williams (of the red wheelbarrow fame) and the Beats are mentioned in articles about projective verse.

comments please? i too am enjoying this conversation.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 05, 2021, 12:20:11 PM
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

Thankyou in advance.

carol,

i convert certain articles i read to pdf and lose the link in doing so.

however,in my response to pilgrim, i left you the google information for denise levertov’s excellent essay on organic poetry form. the instress and inkscape pilgrim mentioned to me is found in that essay.

would you like for me to send you info on other articles i’ve read on the topic?

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 05, 2021, 12:22:20 PM


pilgrim,

your last paragraph was most thought provoking. be back to you on that.

thank you

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 05, 2021, 12:27:07 PM
Hi flowerfox,

You're right. There aren't many current poets who write Zuihitsu.
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.

Which source is this? "sporadic sentences" might well be the poet's way of "organic" writing, which is characteristic of Zuihitsu.
Quote
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

We have mentioned the Pillow Book in the discussion thread about Zuihitsu and another Japanese example is As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams: Recollections of a Woman in Eleventh-century Japan by Lady Sarashina This book has anecdotes, poems, personal ruminations and observances about the countryside and the places she visits on her travels.




Quote
The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

"Instress" and "inscape" are the ideas of Gerald Manley Hopkins (1844- 1889), an English Jesuit priest and poet. A wiki link here for him:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Manley_Hopkins
Also: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerard-Manley-Hopkins
And: https://hopkinspoetry.com/



Quote
A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

I hope it is more than "swatting": inspiring and enriching  :)

light pilgrim




Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 05, 2021, 01:57:24 PM
Hi flowerfox,

You're right. There aren't many current poets who write Zuihitsu.
Apart from, Lorraine and Chen-Ou's zuihitzu poetry, I have found nothing else of this calibre. I have searched but nothing has come up to match these.

Which source is this? "sporadic sentences" might well be the poet's way of "organic" writing, which is characteristic of Zuihitsu.
Quote
All I find is sporadic sentences that make no sense.

We have mentioned the Pillow Book in the discussion thread about Zuihitsu and another Japanese example is As I Crossed a Bridge of Dreams: Recollections of a Woman in Eleventh-century Japan by Lady Sarashina This book has anecdotes, poems, personal ruminations and observances about the countryside and the places she visits on her travels.




Quote
The words, instress and inscape is interesting know about. Something to consider when I, eventually, get to grips with this zuihitzu and produce an experimental piece.

"Instress" and "inscape" are the ideas of Gerald Manley Hopkins (1844- 1889), an English Jesuit priest and poet. A wiki link here for him:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Manley_Hopkins
Also: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerard-Manley-Hopkins
And: https://hopkinspoetry.com/



Quote
A link to swatting up on this would be welcome.

I hope it is more than "swatting": inspiring and enriching  :)

light pilgrim

pilgrim,

hadn’t heard of lady sarashina. thanks!

off to check it out and add it to my wish list.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 05, 2021, 02:45:52 PM



i’m back pilgrim. and i figured out what sounded familiar when you said:

“ As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.”

have you been talking to Alan Summers lately?  because this sounds like a mission statement for his new journal (or at least, new to me) MahMight Haiku Journal

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 06, 2021, 11:07:38 AM
Hi Lorraine,

This thread seems to have taken off since I last replied to your first post, which is great. :)

Coleridge, Levertov and Hopkins are the basics for "organic form poetry, so I suppose the source is similar.

Quote
i swear you and i have been reading similar information. coleridge. levertov. gerald manley hopkins.


Mind you, I highlighted very bare-to-the-bone basics of organic poetry from my own reading so it is good to know that I have not veered off point in comparison to the essay you read:
Quote
the above mentioned essay by levertov was only briefly mentioned by the person who was running the class. however, i found in it the basis that made best sense for addressing the structure of organic poetry which you mention.

I find this fascinating. I would love to hear a Diné recitation. Perhaps such use of "organic form" poetry will grown exponentially and reach beyond cultural and language:

Quote
not sure what others got out of a fairly choppy presentation by a Dine poet (native american poet who primarily uses native american language processing to write their poetry) but i just followed the google breadcrumbs to yet another essay.

Now here I must admit that I know very little about American Literature, where "Projective verse" and Olson feature prominently.
Quote
projective verse :::appears to me that the main element in utilizing it has to do with the actual line length and structure of a poem being dictated by the length of the poet’s breath as he writes the line as he would speak it (so the poet’s speech patterns become the shaping factor of each line of each poem?) and also the way it sounds to the ear when read aloud. so that rhyme of all sorts. rhythm. the way syllables act. will all be of primary importance to this way of writing. so that the artificial forms created to use these elements (i think of meter,accent, used in writing sonnets for example) are to be eschewed.

However, what you say about Olson's idea of a poet's breath and the length of the line in a poem is interesting and makes me think of the Japanese Uta - gathering - where verses were read and written to what could be called "prompts" of motifs and themes. The latter were often premised on the host of the Uta - his house, garden, perhaps lineage of some prominence. My point being that what Olsen seems to be saying about the auditory and "breath" are quite similar to the way poetry was written and shared in Japan. Olson was influenced by Ezra Pound, whose monumental work, The Cantos was based on musical thematic structure rather than the traditional narrative structure. Pound in turn was influenced by the work of Ernst Fenellosa, a scholar of Japanese art and culture, who lived and taught in Japan. After his death in 1908 Fenellosa's body of notes on Japanese and also Chinese literature was left to Pound which Pound studied at great length with the help of Waley. Fenellosa's work on Chinese literature introduced Pound to Chinese ideograms, which feature in The Cantos. Pound also studied the verse form, the haiku, from Fenellosa's notes. So, I wonder if Olson's idea of "breath poem" is perhaps a nod to the influence of Pound?


I have enjoyed this discussion and will definitely read up more on "Projective Poetry".


light pilgrim


















Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 06, 2021, 11:13:20 AM
Hi again,

Thank you for returning with this very interesting point.  I have not had any conversations about poetry and poetic forms with Alan recently. Amazed and indeed honored that you saw similarities in our perspectives. Thank you also for alerting me to his new MahMight Haiku Journal. I will definitely check it out.




i’m back pilgrim. and i figured out what sounded familiar when you said:

“ As a reader, I would say, in the end, what is it about one's poem that offers something to make the reader sit up and take note and also  to be inspired to write in a similar vein? These questions are essential for all writing indeed. I suppose what I am saying is it is not just the form that we use - zuihitsu, "organic" open poetry, tanka, haiku, etc, - but How, we use it that ultimately counts.”

have you been talking to Alan Summers lately?  because this sounds like a mission statement for his new journal (or at least, new to me)

lorraine

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: flowerfox on June 06, 2021, 12:30:11 PM
Hi light pilgrim

Thankyou for your reply. The sites I have visited are, Autumn Sky Poetry and read work by Andrea Zawinsky
Poetry Foundation read work by Jenny Xie
also work by Tina Chang 1969

I know I'm a total novice in this subject, and each poet has his/her own way of writing, however, I found their interpretation of zuihitzu nothing like the format presented on this site.

I also came across the pillow book when searching. I'm happy to read this if it will enhance my understanding of this particular way of presenting verse.

Now, into the links you have provided.

Definitely more than 'swatting' :)
This will take some reading and understanding.

Thankyou

Carol
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 06, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
Hi light pilgrim

Thankyou for your reply. The sites I have visited are, Autumn Sky Poetry and read work by Andrea Zawinsky
Poetry Foundation read work by Jenny Xie
also work by Tina Chang 1969

I know I'm a total novice in this subject, and each poet has his/her own way of writing, however, I found their interpretation of zuihitzu nothing like the format presented on this site.

I also came across the pillow book when searching. I'm happy to read this if it will enhance my understanding of this particular way of presenting verse.

Now, into the links you have provided.

Definitely more than 'swatting' :)
This will take some reading and understanding.

Thankyou

Carol

Carol,

About the pillow book: you need to be very careful about the translator if you decide to buy. Translators take a good deal of freedom when they translate it. Do yourself a favor and read my thread where pilgrim and I discuss it before you buy.

The translation I mistakenly bought was barely 25% of the total book. He omitted everything that he deemed boring trivia. Pilgrim and I discussed the different translations. I have yet to buy the full version. The version I have reads like well-written prose.

As Alan says, it’s a mix of genres(zuihitsu that is).  Fragmented. The way I tend to think. Jumping around. You decide what genre a snippet needs to be in. It will tell you. Don’t force it. Kinda like knowing that a haibun is needed rather than a brief haiku because of what you want to say. Alan told me that good writing is good writing.

I know for a fact that Issue 2 of Bloo Journal has a zuihitsu Alan wrote. His words: very different from yours, Lorraine.

Please stop trying to pin it down and just write. My two  cents   

Lorraine

Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 06, 2021, 06:04:48 PM
Pilgrim and carol,

I’m in the annoying position of having no wifi until Monday late. Very limited cellular data. Plus I’m on my phone. Didn’t want y’all to think that I’m ignoring. Actually, perfect timing to ruminate on what pilgrim said.

Until the morrow
Parting is such sweet sorrow

Lorraine

Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: flowerfox on June 06, 2021, 11:05:53 PM
When you come back.

I was going to down load the kindle version, glad I didn't after reading your conversation.

I've seen different ways poets writ this zuihitzu, is there no right way. I like what I saw in the advanced mentoring section, so, I'll go with this.

I would indeed be more than happy for you to send me info.
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 07, 2021, 08:47:18 AM
Hi Carol,

The pleasure is mine as I am enjoying this discussion and what you bring to it nudges me to go back to some of the books I have enjoyed. Besides, it is stimulating to read about your own take on the genre of Zuihitsu and what you have been reading. :)
 
Quote
Thankyou for your reply.

Thank you for sharing this. I don't know some of these works and will definitely have a good read.
Quote
The sites I have visited are, Autumn Sky Poetry and read work by Andrea Zawinsky
Poetry Foundation read work by Jenny Xie
also work by Tina Chang 1969

I think we are all novices here and what you say about the different ways the poets interpret and use this genre is something that happens in writing. But it is wonderful that you are thinking your way through these differences and finding your way and sharing your thoughts.


Quote
I know I'm a total novice in this subject, and each poet has his/her own way of writing, however, I found their interpretation of zuihitzu nothing like the format presented on this site.

Perhaps it is worth reminding ourselves that Zuihitsu is a GENRE not a specific FORM, like haiku, tanka, ryuka. Haibun is another case, where poets are constantly exploring ways to refine and write. Haibun in Japan is quite different from what we know and write as haibun in the ELH.

So what you say is true for many poets. In a way, it is exciting that our own personal journeys and experiences shape how we use Zuihitsu. The subject or motif, as much as, how we use language to convey this, is what makes writing worthwhile.

I wonder if my original posts in reply to Lorraine about Zuihitsu were confusing. Sometimes we don't think through clearly what we say, taking for granted that there is a common background of information that we all have accessed. But I realize now, that I should have been clearer that Zuihitsu is not a specific form but a wider entity - a GENRE. I do apoloize if my responses have confused you.

Absolutely, please do read it. It is quite an absorbing book. As Basho said to learn of the pine go to the pine. So, what better way to get some idea of how Zuihitsu is used than to read some the books that are popular in this Genre?  Besides, Pillow Book perhaps worth considering As I Crossed the Bridge of Dreams by Lady Sarashina (trans. Ivan Morris) and Essays in Idleness and Hōjōki by Kenkō and Chōmei (trans. Meredith McKinney)
Quote
I also came across the pillow book when searching. I'm happy to read this if it will enhance my understanding of this particular way of presenting verse.

I don't know if Wild Ivy, The Spiritual Autobiography pf Zen Master Hakunin (trans. Norman Waddell) would count as Zuihitsu, but it is quite engaging with descriptions of his childhood, his travels and his Zen practices and indeed conflicts with various other Zen Masters.

Hopkins is truly inspiring with his "sprung rhythm" and use of imagery and language so I do hope you will enjoy the read: :)

Now, into the links you have provided.

Definitely more than 'swatting' :)
This will take some reading and understanding.

Thankyou

Carol
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 07, 2021, 06:23:48 PM


FINALLY!!! INTERNET!!!  ON MY IPAD!!!

hi pilgrim,

finally have a large enough screen and wifi to boot. allows me to look into Gerard Manley Hopkins links that you shared. which are spectacular, i must say. i’ve heard the name. i know he’s important in the poetic scheme of things. but i’ve not read more than a couple of his poems.

are you familiar with Stephen Dobyns’ essays? next word, better word. on the crafting of poetry. best words, best order. essays on poets and their poetry.   are the two i have. li they are two books that i go back to frequently.

back to Hopkins. i read the bio stuff. made me think of St. john of the Cross and Thomas Merton. Merton more of an essayist. both monks.

when something is going to affect me in a major way, i get this funny, excited feeling in my solar plexus. a kind of “wait-till-you-get-a-load-of-this!” teaser. hopkins work has something for me. something that will expand my writing. something waiting to be discovered. your link to the gerard manley hopkins poetry website with his poems and study guide is where i go next.

i my writing keeps evolving. it’s never the same. i don’t think i’ll ever be pinned down as being ____ kind of poet. every thing i read. think about. changes me forever. changes my writing as i incorporate new ideas.

i’m ranting. abbey schnauzer needs walking.

keep those links and conversation coming please. i so look forward.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: flowerfox on June 09, 2021, 07:39:15 AM
Hello light pilgrim and Lorraine

Thanks for the info, about this being a genre and not a specific form it does leave way for a bit of interpretation on presentation.

I enjoyed the search, and this conversation. t has lead me to many different writers of verse and nature.

Some time ago I started to read, essays in idleness. I'll go back for another read, at some time, I could get more from it second time round.

Now, its a case of getting down to reading and as always re reading.

Thanks both

I may be away for some time :)
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 09, 2021, 08:51:51 AM
Hello light pilgrim and Lorraine

Thanks for the info, about this being a genre and not a specific form it does leave way for a bit of interpretation on presentation.

I enjoyed the search, and this conversation. t has lead me to many different writers of verse and nature.

Some time ago I started to read, essays in idleness. I'll go back for another read, at some time, I could get more from it second time round.

Now, its a case of getting down to reading and as always re reading.

Thanks both

I may be away for some time :)

nah!!! we won’t let you whig out on us that easily 🙃

i too am immersed in reading. haven’t written anything new of my own in a whole week!?  😩  🤐
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 09, 2021, 11:28:58 AM
Hi Lorraine,

The bane of technology! How much we depend on it and how frustrating when bandwidth-connections, not enough data/memory etc play up. You have my full sympathy.

Quote
FINALLY!!! INTERNET!!!  ON MY IPAD!!!   finally have a large enough screen and wifi to boot.


I am delighted that you too are now enchanted by Hopkins. :) He was quite wary of what his writings might bring him as he veered between bouts of depression. But his distinctive voice is truly inspiring.
Quote
allows me to look into Gerard Manley Hopkins links that you shared. which are spectacular, i must say. i’ve heard the name. i know he’s important in the poetic scheme of things. but i’ve not read more than a couple of his poems.

I must admit that I haven't read much of Dobyns' poetry but, yes, I do know of his "Next Word, Better Word" which is a witty riposte  to Ginsburg's "first word, best word". I can appreciate why you return to this work. The one point which struck me was his insistence for clarity in what poets write. That a throw- away phrase such as "and the geese fly north into memory" while seemingly original and striking befuddles the reader as it makes no sense. I am reminded of TS Eliot's warning about how to avoid language being a "barbed wire" which frustrates and bars the reader. Something, a poet and writer should keep in mind. But of course in the name of experiment many do adopt such flourishes. Another point that both Dobyns and Eliot make is about the "craft" of writing and that a critical eye is essential for a poet to write better. Eliot argued that one does not lose one's original voice if we let our writing be critiqued and edited.
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are you familiar with Stephen Dobyns’ essays? next word, better word. on the crafting of poetry. best words, best order. essays on poets and their poetry.   are the two i have. li they are two books that i go back to frequently.

You're absolutely right about the underlying similarities with the Spanish mystic St. John and Thomas Merton. They were all seeking "God" not through the theological construct but as a personal quest. Hopkins found it in the landscape, St. John in his own soul and Merton was hugely influenced by Hopkins and also looked for the spiritual in experience and not texts and teachings.
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back to Hopkins. i read the bio stuff. made me think of St. john of the Cross and Thomas Merton. Merton more of an essayist. both monks.

I find Merton quite fascinating as he was interested in Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism and initiated conversations with the Dalai Lama.


This is wonderful! His use of language and the landscape is both lyrical and inspiring. Who else apart from the Bard (perhaps Joyce cannot be overlooked) can forge words with such impact? : "Where shake shadow is sun's eye-ringed" (The WoodLark) or " As a dare-gale skylark scanted in a dull cage" (The Caged Skylark).
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when something is going to affect me in a major way, i get this funny, excited feeling in my solar plexus. a kind of “wait-till-you-get-a-load-of-this!” teaser. hopkins work has something for me. something that will expand my writing. something waiting to be discovered. your link to the gerard manley hopkins poetry website with his poems and study guide is where i go next.

I wish you many, many hours of immersion in Hopkin's world of language and imagery.


You certainly are well on the path to a journey of writing and reflection. I hope long may you be inspired and find the passion to change "Next poem, Better Poem".  :)
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i my writing keeps evolving. it’s never the same. i don’t think i’ll ever be pinned down as being ____ kind of poet. every thing i read. think about. changes me forever. changes my writing as i incorporate new ideas.


We all have commitments and call on our time but it is great that we meet in poetry discussion.
Quote
i’m ranting. abbey schnauzer needs walking.


Let's hope more join with more themes.
Quote
keep those links and conversation coming please. i so look forward.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 10, 2021, 02:38:56 PM



hi again pilgrim,

you mentioned ginsberg’s “first word, best word” quote. you know, for the longest time i thought it was coleridge. then, i found that i wanted to use it as an example in a piece to a friend; i always fact check before i stick my foot in my mouth. and i stood corrected.

in the hopkins website there are a number of his poems along with study guides. it’s been forever since i’ve scansioned but i’m really curious about his sprung rhythm and also the ways he both lengthened and shortened his sonnets. so, diving into the deep end!

while i was reading and ruminating on hopkins’ inscape / instress, i learned he had been influenced by Duns Scotus in that regard. found a interesting site that talked at length about it from both men’s point of view. sent that on to Carol.

about merton. i became acquainted with him through my shaman reading me his favorite prayer written by merton. i read a number of merton’s essays. but what i really enjoyed was merton’s photography. i too take photographs, always searching for the essence or suchness of what i’m photographing. sometimes the essence is best shown after a round in photoshop.

speaking of suchness, is that not a primary endeavor to uncover in buddhism or hinduism perhaps. read that someplace.

i think it’s really cool (can’t think of a better term) that the kind of topics we’re discussing in this thread are not limited to one culture or one religious group. everyone searches for similar events. experiences. answers. have similar questions.

gotta go. abbey schnauzer needs feeding.

thanks for the continuing conversation.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 14, 2021, 07:17:39 AM
Hi Carol,

I'm sorry that I missed this post of yours.This thread has grown since we started discussing our views.


Not at all. Your questions raised important issues for me and made me realize how one must be careful while using terms like "form", "style" etc.
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Thanks for the info, about this being a genre and not a specific form it does leave way for a bit of interpretation on presentation.


Same here. :) Our discussion took me back to some of the books shelved for a while and I am delighted that you are now reading more writers. Please do share any writers that you have found interesting. Would be very grateful for your suggestions.
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I enjoyed the search, and this conversation. t has lead me to many different writers of verse and nature.

You're absolutely right. A second and more readings can be quite rewarding.
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Some time ago I started to read, essays in idleness. I'll go back for another read, at some time, I could get more from it second time round.


I agree  :)
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Now, its a case of getting down to reading and as always re reading.


You're welcome and thanks to you I too am reading more now.
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Thanks both


For when you return, may I add WG Sebald's The Rings of Saturn and Campos Santo? These are his essays/memoirs. Rings is about his foot journey along the East Anglia coast, England, UK and Campos is his account of visiting Corsica. He writes enviably well using history, philosophy, descriptions of nature and people.
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I may be away for some time :)

light pilgrim





Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: flowerfox on June 15, 2021, 01:52:30 AM
Hi light pilgrim

I look forward to reading the work of WG Sebald. I had to look up Santos Campo - cemetery/burial place, now that piqued my interest.

Lorraine was kind enough to send me some pdf files on  various writers. I started on the last two. The second one I'm in the process of reading -Scotus, Hopkins and living in the particular- an interesting read.

A quote from it: read not slovenly with the eyes but take a deep breath and read it with the ears.
And isn't this the way with poetry, and more so with the short form verses such as haiku and related forms.

At the moment I'm reading a book by Thomas Merton-when the trees say nothing- nature writing.
This I feel is much the same as the way of writing zuihitzu, minus the verses.

It will be interesting to read the passages of his encounters with animals, knowing the nature of the beast is an important part of capturing their true nature within words.

Back to work, then down to more reading, later on.
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 15, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
Hi Carol,

Sebald has a way of evoking scent of plants, sounds of the night/day, the local landscape and then weaving it with several literary and art refrences:  The Castle (Kafka), Günter Grass, Dürer, Orphelia. I found myself searching and finding books and art, which I hadn't before. I hope you enjoy it:
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I look forward to reading the work of WG Sebald. I had to look up Santos Campo - cemetery/burial place, now that piqued my interest.


 How good of Lorraine to send you these files. Scotus, Hopkins and living in the particular- is very well written and also raises some vital comparisons with the Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen teachings which holds that that every sentient being has an inherent Buddha nature and that there is no higher order  but all that is meaningful is in the here and now.
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Lorraine was kind enough to send me some pdf files on  various writers. I started on the last two. The second one I'm in the process of reading -Scotus, Hopkins and living in the particular- an interesting read.

Remarkably Dzogchen in spirit.😊
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A quote from it: read not slovenly with the eyes but take a deep breath and read it with the ears.
And isn't this the way with poetry, and more so with the short form verses such as haiku and related forms.

I haven't read this one so I am fascinated by your comparison with Zuihtsu.
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At the moment I'm reading a book by Thomas Merton-when the trees say nothing- nature writing.
This I feel is much the same as the way of writing zuihitzu, minus the verses.

This is a wonderful thought! 😊
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It will be interesting to read the passages of his encounters with animals, knowing the nature of the beast is an important part of capturing their true nature within words.


My revels too will end soon as work catches up in a few days. I have so enjoyed this discussion. Thank you.
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Back to work, then down to more reading, later on.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 15, 2021, 08:50:29 AM
P.S.

I should add that the comparisons of Scotus, Hopkins and living in the particular with Dzogchen teachings is my own particular reading of the work.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 15, 2021, 11:01:57 AM


hi pilgrim,

i will have to take a look at Sebald as well. i’m currently rereading, for at least the 3rd time, mark doty’s book of essays: world into word. what caught me last night were his comments on how effective writers evoke color by using a reference to an object that evokes the particular color. i do that myself when i write about a particular shade of blue as “arizona early april morning blue.” a friend who resides in tucson knew exactly the color of blue i referred to.  mark doty’s examples are shorter, often only one word.

it sounds like sebald unlocks more sensory descriptive than color. it’s going on my list.

don’t work too hard. hurry back.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 17, 2021, 03:14:19 PM
Hi Lorraine,

As ever, you have raised some interesting points. You have kept Carol and me engaged and exploring books and writers 😊

It's great that you've found Hopkin's poems and discussion of his work online. Online sources are indeed a godsend. I have read that his "sprung rhythm" was influenced by the rhythms of the Welsh language. This is interesting as his sojourn in Wales was a happy one and in his lyrical use of language, he reminds of Dylan Thomas, albeit Dylan Thomas is a much more of a performer, bardic poet, whereas Hopkins is reflective and quite melancholy.
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in the hopkins website there are a number of his poems along with study guides. it’s been forever since i’ve scansioned but i’m really curious about his sprung rhythm and also the ways he both lengthened and shortened his sonnets. so, diving into the deep end!

It is fascinating how he invented the ‘curtal sonnet’. (‘curtal’ meaning 'shortened', as in ‘curtailed’).

Very good of you to send Carol the site links. Your point here made me go back to reading about  Hopkins -Duns Scotus again. In a way, the latter gave Hopkins the courage and inspiration to write poetry as a Jesuit priest. Hopkins was conflicted about his calling and his literary aspirations. But Duns Scotus's view that the human DNA is divine and that evrything : plants, amimals, humans,  God are connected - made it possible for Hopkins to write so evocatively and passionately.
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while i was reading and ruminating on hopkins’ inscape / instress, i learned he had been influenced by Duns Scotus in that regard. found a interesting site that talked at length about it from both men’s point of view. sent that on to Carol.



Two things here: 1. Please would you elaborate a little more about the shaman? I am absolutely fascinated and wonder if the shaman is akin to the local healers we have. Is the shaman a community-based healer?

The second thing, I hope you use your photography for haiga or other artistic projects. Must admit that I have not really paid much attention to Merton's photography So thank you for mentioning it.
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about merton. i became acquainted with him through my shaman reading me his favorite prayer written by merton. i read a number of merton’s essays. but what i really enjoyed was merton’s photography. i too take photographs, always searching for the essence or suchness of what i’m photographing. sometimes the essence is best shown after a round in photoshop.

You're absolutely right - "suchness' or  ‘just the way it is’ is similar to Duns Scotus’ notion of haecaeitas or 'thisness.' In Buddhism it is Tathata, the agata particle means come or gone or a locative in, so Thus gone, Thus come, or Thus dwelling are all possible. Tathatagarbha means potential Buddhahood inherent in all beings.


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speaking of suchness, is that not a primary endeavor to uncover in buddhism or hinduism perhaps. read that someplace.


You could not have expressed it better! 😊
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i think it’s really cool (can’t think of a better term) that the kind of topics we’re discussing in this thread are not limited to one culture or one religious group. everyone searches for similar events. experiences. answers. have similar questions.

All part and parcel of this tapestry of life!
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gotta go. abbey schnauzer needs feeding.

I am enjoying this very much, albeit I have to 'steal' time to read and engage fully with all the wonderful issues, you and Carol bring up.



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thanks for the continuing conversation.
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 17, 2021, 06:03:38 PM


hi pilgrim (saying that always makes me think of john wayne) 🙃,

about my shaman. michael (that’s his given name) started his healing job as a PhD clinical psychologist.  that was how i found him in december 2019. i had been diagnosed with and variously treated for multiple personality disorder and, in 2018-2019, epilepsy that remained unresponsive to drug therapy. one hospital stay in 2018 diagnosed temporal lobe epilepsy and the hospitalization in 2019 said that it was psychological in origin. which was why i was having sessions with michael.

turned out that the psychological had a spiritual cause. michael had taken 4 years of shaman training that led him to being a third degree shaman, the highest level possible. shaman heal both physical and mental disease by treating the spiritual cause. attacking my problems from a spiritual standpoint led to the negative entities that caused both physical and mental health problems to being cast out. the catholic church calls it exorcism. then the energetic healing to fill the space left empty.

michael doesn’t advertise himself as a spiritual healer, a shaman. his training is based on the healing ways of the peruvian currandero. he doesn’t start with mental illness being spiritually based. though most of the time they are. he has practiced with native american groups where he would be perceived as a community based healer. in big city tucson, arizona, he’s mental health firstly.

this description is deliberately sketchy. there are many, many lifetimes of knowing each other. not positive. he’s worked with my survivor stories as a way to lighten his karma. i feel used. i’ll write that story someday. at the end of the story currently. just as he’s freed me of negative spiritual entities, i need to be free of him.  it’s been lifetimes coming

where are you that community based healers are the default?

on another note:::i bought w g sebald’s the rings of saturn. as i told carol in my thread in advanced “not home”, sebald’s writing puts me very much in mind of w. b. yeats’ occult channeling as a way to access the akashi record which is an archive that records everything that has happened on earth since the beginning of time. every piece of information, no matter how large or minute. yeats used the huge amounts of information to build a symbolic system within his writing that led to vagueness and a lack of clarity that only the people in the occult group he belonged to could decipher.

i’m not saying sebald did what yeats did. but the extraordinary variety of information with its wealth of detail simply put me in mind of what i know about yeats.

back to you.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 18, 2021, 08:04:18 AM
Hi Lorraine,

(Now the image of John Wayne will be forever associated with 'Hi' in my mind) 😁


Mark Doty sounds very interesting and I will look it up. Thank you for the pointer. It is great how you use associations to evoke a color rather than just stating the hue. The painters too have a good range of terms for all kinds of hues. An example: 'viridian green', 'sap green', 'jade', 'celeadon' 'chrome green' etc.
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i will have to take a look at Sebald as well. i’m currently rereading, for at least the 3rd time, mark doty’s book of essays: world into word. what caught me last night were his comments on how effective writers evoke color by using a reference to an object that evokes the particular color. i do that myself when i write about a particular shade of blue as “arizona early april morning blue.” a friend who resides in tucson knew exactly the color of blue i referred to.  mark doty’s examples are shorter, often only one word
.

You're right, reading Sebald is like going on many trajectories as his sheer knowledge and allusions are a treasure trove. Kafka, Edward Lear, St Julian, Dürer etc come thick and fast. He is perhaps of the same tradition of learning as the late George Steiner, who wove philosophy, history, art, music, literature, current affairs seamlessly in his writings and made one want to learn something new and more. Joyce too is the same with his encyclopedic range of allusions.

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it sounds like sebald unlocks more sensory descriptive than color. it’s going on my list.


A joke: if one tells someone that one is a burglar as an occupation, they might think, 'not a wise choice' but they would get it. If one says, "i am a poet', they are totally thrown and can't take it seriously. So to earn a living, writing has to be put aside, now and then.

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don’t work too hard. hurry back.

Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 18, 2021, 08:37:30 AM
Hello again,

(don't want the John Wayne image really) 😂

Thank you so much for this powerful account of your experience of shamanic practice. You're indeed brave and generous to share such a poignant experience. I didn't know that clinical psychologists also sometimes train as shamans. I imagined that the shamanic tradition was hereditary.

Yes, I do know of exorcism in Catholic tradition. In many communities including Tibet,  Bhutan, Nepal, Sikkim, Ladakh, there is a long established tradition of exorcism rites for purification of land, house, person, animals. In a similar manner to what you describe 'negative' presences or spirit are driven out by the local healers/shamans. This might involve seances, offerings at sacred places in the locality etc.

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about my shaman. michael (that’s his given name) started his healing job as a PhD clinical psychologist.  that was how i found him in december 2019. i had been diagnosed with and variously treated for multiple personality disorder and, in 2018-2019, epilepsy that remained unresponsive to drug therapy. one hospital stay in 2018 diagnosed temporal lobe epilepsy and the hospitalization in 2019 said that it was psychological in origin. which was why i was having sessions with michael.

turned out that the psychological had a spiritual cause. michael had taken 4 years of shaman training that led him to being a third degree shaman, the highest level possible. shaman heal both physical and mental disease by treating the spiritual cause. attacking my problems from a spiritual standpoint led to the negative entities that caused both physical and mental health problems to being cast out. the catholic church calls it exorcism. then the energetic healing to fill the space left empty.

michael doesn’t advertise himself as a spiritual healer, a shaman. his training is based on the healing ways of the peruvian currandero. he doesn’t start with mental illness being spiritually based. though most of the time they are. he has practiced with native american groups where he would be perceived as a community based healer. in big city tucson, arizona, he’s mental health firstly.

I think this is such a powerful realization on your part : to  break away the ties to a particular source/person. In essence, this is the 'moksha' for freedom that realization brings.
Quote
this description is deliberately sketchy. there are many, many lifetimes of knowing each other. not positive. he’s worked with my survivor stories as a way to lighten his karma. i feel used. i’ll write that story someday. at the end of the story currently. just as he’s freed me of negative spiritual entities, i need to be free of him.  it’s been lifetimes coming


Mainly the Himalayan region. The healers usually 'inherit' their 'healing spirits' from father or mother to child. But there are also traditions, where the 'healing spirit' selects its practitioner and the person is 'possessed' and trained by the healer whose shares the 'healing spirit' or deity as it is called in the local communities. The repertoire of healing songs, mantras are passed down by word of mouth. It is essentially an oral tradition with no texts or scriptures used at the various rites and celebrations.

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where are you that community based healers are the default?


Now this is something I have not looked into at great depth. Yeats belonged to Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which combined geomancy, astrology, Kabalah, astology, alchemy and tarot. There was the famous fallout with Crowley. But I have not heard of Yeats in association with Akashi records. However, both Akashi (Sanskrit for the ether/ sky) and Hermetic Order were influenced by the Theosophical Society so perhaps Yeats probably knew of the fabled Akashi Reords.

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on another note:::i bought w g sebald’s the rings of saturn. as i told carol in my thread in advanced “not home”, sebald’s writing puts me very much in mind of w. b. yeats’ occult channeling as a way to access the akashi record which is an archive that records everything that has happened on earth since the beginning of time. every piece of information, no matter how large or minute. yeats used the huge amounts of information to build a symbolic system within his writing that led to vagueness and a lack of clarity that only the people in the occult group he belonged to could decipher.


Again, I must look into Sebald. He is more into the memory/loss of memory. rise and decay of culture and civilization etc. But worth further reading for me. So thank you.

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i’m not saying sebald did what yeats did. but the extraordina
ry variety of information with its wealth of detail simply put me in mind of what i know about yeats. [/quote]

Lorraine, I appreciate your honest and deeply moving account of your shaman Michael. I hope you will find your healing in  - in a way, your articulating so clearly is a beginning and your writing and communicating, will keep you well and safe.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 19, 2021, 08:10:16 AM


hello light pilgrim,

you had previously commented on haiga. i got wound up on my shaman story and never addressed your question.

i tried a couple of haiga in 2016 when i was first here on the site. Alan Summers gently steered me in the better rendition of my experimentation.

here’s my take on haiga:::you have a haiku (fragment-phrase-jux) that can stand on its own. you have a photo that can stand on its own. they should not explain each other in an obvious manner.

i look at that photo as providing another layer of jux. wow! just arrived at that realization just now! THAT’S why the photo and haiku shouldn’t be obviously joined!

until this very moment, my hesitation with haiga has been knowing what photo goes with what haiku! this is an aha! moment for me! VERY COOL!


on another note:::i came to mark doty through his poem “a display of mackerel.” loved it then. continue to enjoy it now.

back to you.

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 23, 2021, 04:21:47 AM
Hello again,

Thank you for returning about your haiga. What you say about the poem and the image standing on their own is absolutely right. The craft is in finding a nuanced link between the two. Me thinks you’re well on your way into experimenting with haiga and getting to the nub of it.

Alan is brilliant and generous as a mentor.

Thanks to you l found Mark Doty’s “mackerel” poem and love these lines:

“the rainbowed school
and its acres of brilliant classrooms,
in which no verb is singular, …”

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 23, 2021, 05:40:50 AM


hi light pilgrim,

a special thanks to you for posting the info about sonam chhoki’s latest book. thanks to mike montreuil, i am the proud owner of both her new book and the one they wrote together. amazing use of language and clarity in both! and the best thing? mike was able to send files that work on my kindle!

lorraine
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 23, 2021, 08:40:40 PM
Hi again,

Not at all, Lorraine. 😊

Mike is very good and helpful. I hope you enjoy the read.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 24, 2021, 07:00:39 PM
Hi Lorraine,

cattails journal accepts haiga. Submissions open on 1st July. Do think of sending some of your haiga.

light pilgrim
Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 25, 2021, 03:26:14 AM
Hi Lorraine,

cattails journal accepts haiga. Submissions open on 1st July. Do think of sending some of your haiga.

light pilgrim

a gentle nudge? thank you for the encouragement and the vote of confidence. i’ll take a look at my pics.

lorraine

Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: light pilgrim on June 25, 2021, 10:07:48 AM
Hi again,

Your post about Merton’s photography and your own interest and trying out haiga reminded me of the black&white photos by Lavana Kray, who is also the Haiga Editor at cattails:

http://www.cattailsjournal.com/issues/CattailsApril2021.pdf

Perhaps you have some haiga to send😊

Lavana is helpful and inspiring.

Title: Re: zuihitsu, organic form poetry and open form poetry
Post by: Lorraine Pester on June 25, 2021, 02:04:03 PM
Hi again,

Your post about Merton’s photography and your own interest and trying out haiga reminded me of the black&white photos by Lavana Kray, who is also the Haiga Editor at cattails:

http://www.cattailsjournal.com/issues/CattailsApril2021.pdf

Perhaps you have some haiga to send😊

Lavana is helpful and inspiring.

i took a closer look at lavana’s b&w photographs. quite amazing

perhaps

lorraine