Hello. I am new to haiku and new to this forum. I have been reading a book of Haiku by Basho, and have noticed that many do not seem to follow the 5-7-5 syllable pattern. Is this an old, antiquated rule that translators ignore? Did the original japanese haiku writers rigidly follow the 5-7-5- pattern? Is it just an english thing? Do some translators keep it mind? Why do so many published poems not adhere to this convention? Thanks!
Hi Dana, welcome to the forum!
haiku can use as many syllables as you wish it to, as long as it's reasonably short. The idea that there was any such credible rule as 5-7-5 syllables in Japanese composition strikes me as peculiar since japanese sound units work differently to our own.
If you don't mind can you tell us which book it is that you have been reading?
warmest,
John
Hello John, thank you for your response. I am surprised that the 5-7-5 is not a credible rule. any years ago, in school, I was taught that 5-7-5 was the correct form, and I have seen this mentioned on various web pages. Here is one I have looked at:
http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/form.htm
The book I am reading is called "Basho and His Interpreters, and none of the poems in the collection seem to be 5-7-5.
Are you saying the 5-7-5 is an old wives tale? Was it ever a rule? In any language? I'm a little confused. Thanks again for your help!
Dana
Hi dana - maybe i can help also with this question. In Japan, onji is the term we think of when speaking of syllables. There it is common practice to begin elementary teaching using 5/7/5. This is to develop the art of brevity. After this is accomplished, variation is then accepted. Basho was taught this way .. and then went about writing with much variation - reverting back to 5/7/5 when he wished to honor his original teaching. So yes 5/7/5 may be seen as correct when speaking of an elementary teaching ... the rule however is not something that is expected to be strictly enforced (according to original Japanese design). Hope this helps. :)
Hi Dana
Welcome to the Haiku Foundation! :-)
Japanese haiku sound units are usually counter by 'on' or 'ji' and are different and shorter and more regular in duration than English-language syllables that greatly vary in length.
I often find that Japanese haiku read by women, and Western haiku read out by all genders are often six seconds in length while a Japanese male may read them out in three seconds.
Alan
Quote from: dana on July 30, 2011, 02:47:29 PM
Hello John, thank you for your response. I am surprised that the 5-7-5 is not a credible rule. any years ago, in school, I was taught that 5-7-5 was the correct form, and I have seen this mentioned on various web pages. Here is one I have looked at:
http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/form.htm
The book I am reading is called "Basho and His Interpreters, and none of the poems in the collection seem to be 5-7-5.
Are you saying the 5-7-5 is an old wives tale? Was it ever a rule? In any language? I'm a little confused. Thanks again for your help!
Dana
Ha - that is an interesting insight Alan .. thank you. A sharing:
http://www.ahapoetry.com/wildonji.htm
Dear asa-gao
Welcome to THF! :-)
Yes, Richard is well worth reading and you might also enjoy reading his article: The Disjunctive Dragonfly.
all my best
Alan
Quote from: asa-gao on July 30, 2011, 06:39:01 PM
Ha - that is an interesting insight Alan .. thank you. A sharing:
http://www.ahapoetry.com/wildonji.htm
Thank you for all the comments, and the link. All of the comments were extremely helpful and much appreciated. This clears up my confusion. I was under the mistaken impression that the "unconventional" syllable counts were a translation issue, but now understand that it is a matter of the poet's need and freedom to go beyond the rules. The rules must not get in the way of clarity.
So, I suppose it is another question entirely whether, once the poet has completed his or her poem in a a chosen form, if the translator will feel bound to reproduce the poem's form exactly. I think I'm understanding that most translators may value most getting the meaning, the image correct, in brief form, and do not focus on duplicating the exact form.
Thanks again for all your help. I am enjoying this website. :)
Dana
Hi Dana - glad to have been of at least some help. Translation is a whole different ball game. Truthfully, without speaking the Japanese language fluently, we may never fully understand many writings but we can come close enough to be captured by an art that cannot so much be taught, as it can be caught.
Just as any one haiku may have many interpretations - so also may it have many translations. Think you will enjoy this, if you have not already found it in your travels:
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm
Thank you for the warm welcome Alan - I see we share some mutual articles in our library. I have read the DD before, and fondly remember one of the references: Bashô, Buson, and modern haiku myths, by Professor Shirane. Simply one of the best essays ever, imo. Sharing with you - if you have not already seen it:
http://www.haikupoet.com/definitions/beyond_the_haiku_moment.html
Have been reading your haiku and very much enjoy it ... look forward to more sharing:)