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As a reader, I like to learn about all elements of Japanese haiku, including elements that cannot be translated, such as Japanese syntax, rhythms, literary references, and cultural associations. As a writer of haiku  in English, however, I am more interested in the elements of Japanese haiku that can be translated, such as seasonal  references, certain approaches to imagery, certain ways of expressing feeling,  a sense of "now," and the effect of surprise (based the Haiku Guide by Patricia Donegan (http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Donegan2009.html) and Kazuo Sato (http://www.haiku-hia.com/snk_satou_en.html)).

For example, when I read The  Essential Haiku, Versions of Basho, Buson, and Issa, edited by Robert Hass,  I see poems that are like nothing else in English, poems which probably could not have been born in English. Yet, there they are in English, inviting us into another world.

Is this world the world of Japanese haiku? Not really, that world cannot be reached unless you can study haiku in the original Japanese. But translations are the closest that most of us will ever get to that world. Whether this is close enough to give English-speakers the right to create haiku in English and call them haiku is a debate that will never be resolved until the River of Heaven falls into the sea. Poets will make up their own minds about this question.

What Japanese haiku traditions (including 20th century traditions) help you to write haiku in English?

Dear Dave,
thanks for bringing up the problems of translation ... my perennial headache !

Anyway,
I have been introducing more than 100 Japanese haiku poets over the years, many with in-depth discussions of possible translations and the cultural background of a given situation necessary for understanding the meaning.
Many Japanese haiku are thus introduced "in context" for readers who do not speak Japanese and know little about Japanese culture.

The list would be too long to post here, so look at this link please.
http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/

The World Kigo Database also tries to introduce Japanese kigo with more detail than just the word itself.

If there are any Japanese haiku or kigo you would like to be discussed in more detail, please let me know.


My mother tongue is German, next comes British English and since 1977 Japanese. I work as a translator of scientific, medical and Buddhist art texts.
(BTW, I dream in Japanese and often my German relatives talk to me in Japanese in a dream ... which makes me wake up in wonder . . .   :D)

All the Best with English-language haiku (ELH).

Gabi

.

Hi Dave, nice to meet you, and you raise interesting points which others here could probably answer far better than I. You will probably think me a heretic, but my thoughts here sometimes we can get lost in minutae, and sidetracked, read absorb and assimilate but like basho and the other early poets haiku moments are in the now and being in tune with the flow of our individual universe with all our senses alert and open to that flow. Gabi, how wonderful to be fluent in three languages, it must help your appreciation of how haiku is evolving in a shrinking world, I guess some multilingual japanese poets now write haiku in english too, I would love to read some of those.

Thanks for your reply and links, Gabi. You know far better  than I about the difficulties of translation from Japanese to English!

My point is different than that, though. I am suggesting  that there are advantages—for poets who write haiku in English—in focusing on those  aspects of haiku which are more readily translatable: such as seasonal  references, certain approaches to imagery,  etc. I'm suggesting that these translatable characteristics, rather than the  ones that are so Japanese as to defy translation, could be the basis of  haiku in other languages.

For example, I'm not so sure that the Japanese idea of kigo, as opposed to the simpler idea of a seasonal reference, is as meaningful in other languages as it is in Japanese. Here's hoping that the World Kigo Database, and such books as Haiku World (William J. Higginson, Kondansha America, New York, 1996), prove me wrong.

Also,  I'm sure you know that the Gendai haiku poets (http://gendaihaiku.com/dreams/index.html) and others have  challenged kigo and every other haiku convention. If Japanese haiku poets can do that and still write poems that are accepted in haiku in many quarters, my hope is that we can do that, too.

Oops! I was logged in as the admin during my reply to Gabi. Sorry Gabi, I did not mean to do that.

Thanks for your post, Gael. I am no expert, just someone who reads and writes haiku on occasion.  

You bring up a point that often gets lost in the back and forth of forum posts: the proof is in the poems.

If there are those who believe that haiku in English should be as Japanese as possible, they should form a group and publish their haiku in various venues. We already have groups who take other approaches. Of course we have the Yuki Teikei Haiku Society, but it would be good to see poems from other groups with a similar philosophy.

Once we start talking about poems instead of ideas I think we will be reminded of something: we are talking about matters of taste.

"For example, I'm not so sure that the Japanese idea of kigo, as opposed to the simpler idea of a seasonal reference, is as meaningful in other languages as it is in Japanese. Here's hoping that the World Kigo Database, and such books as Haiku World (William J. Higginson, Kondansha America, New York, 1996), prove me wrong.
Also,  I'm sure you know that the Gendai haiku poets and others have  challenged kigo and every other haiku convention. If Japanese haiku poets can do that and still write poems that are accepted in haiku in many quarters, my hope is that we can do that, too." --Dave Russo

Gabi, despite or because of your tremendous effort to build a multicultural kigo database, you must see that a seasonal reference would have to be widely adopted for a very long time before it could graduate to a literary device with the contextual richness of Japanese kigo. If we do succeed to such a time (as unlikely as that seems, but I'll dream the dream with you and your Deutsch relatives for now) will we arrive there through carefully laid out and obeyed rules and regulations, or will the pathway be organic and unpredictable? The latter is more likely, imo. Please don't drop your project on my account (I know you won't, and shouldn't).

Dave's last point in the above quote is crucial to our discussions here, I think. Elh can learn from Jlh, no question, but Jlh is not monolithic, nor are Jlh rules indisputable.

Quote from: Dave Russo on December 19, 2010, 08:31:44 PM
Oops! I was logged in as the admin during my reply to Gabi. Sorry Gabi, I did not mean to do that.

Thanks for your post, Gael. I am no expert, just someone who reads and writes haiku on occasion.  

You bring up a point that often gets lost in the back and forth of forum posts: the proof is in the poems.

If there are those who believe that haiku in English should be as Japanese as possible, they should form a group and publish their haiku in various venues. We already have groups who take other approaches. Of course we have the Yuki Teikei Haiku Society, but it would be good to see poems from other groups with a similar philosophy.

Once we start talking about poems instead of ideas I think we will be reminded of something: we are talking about matters of taste.

Hi Dave,

I like your suggestion of forming different groups that support different ideas.

The "proof is in the poems"... do you mean that if one writes a poem based on a certain set of rules they are the proof of the rule?

If you would, could you clear a little more what was meant in your last sentence?

Once we start talking about poems instead of ideas I think we will be reminded of something: we are talking about matters of taste.

Thanx and Happy Holidays!

Hi Chibi, happy holidays to you as well!

By "the proof is in the poems," I meant that the proof of an aesthetic is in the poems that are written according to that aesthetic. If someone thinks that criteria x, y. and z are critical to haiku, let's see the poems with x, y, and z skilfully employed. Otherwise we get bogged down in the descriptions of what were are going to do or ought to do in our poems, whenever we stop talking long enough to write them ;-)

"...we are talking about matters of taste." I meant that there are no objective criteria for determining whether a poem is or is not a haiku. My assumption is that "haiku" like all art is ultimately defined by artists, and artists like to disagree with one another. 

QuoteWhat Japanese haiku traditions (including 20th century traditions) help you to write haiku in English? --Dave Russo

Going back to your original question, Dave, I'm influenced by the way the Japanese juxtapose images (chunks of words, really, usually anchored in the sensual, and which serve many functions) through the use of cuts and extremely compacted encoded references. By encoded references I mean the complex contextual cues imbedded in every word and phrase, kigo and otherwise. By cuts I mean multiple cuts that are sometimes designated and other times semantically implied. I could go on longer, but more erudite explanations than mine can be found in the books and articles of Haruo Shirane, Hiro Sato, Richard Gilbert, and others.

and if we choose to call what we write haiku, whether we utilize Japanese ways of compacting and encoding information or instead come up with our own strategies, I think it's useful to inform ourselves about the genre's traditional techniques, and its origins. How much (as readers of haiku written in any language) are we missing if we don't?

well, I'm probably missing a lot because I don't have access to that aspect of kigo, hon'i, so I probably don't really get the more intellectually based haiku which use hon'i, whether traditionally or as something to bounce off or rebel against. 

So I must admit that the Japanese traditions which "help me write haiku in English" are those which I've found embodied in EL haiku by my elders and betters, and what I've found moving in translations of Japanese haiku: awareness and engagement with the natural world (including humans) on the literal level, which, in relation with a seasonal reference (not kigo, since I don't share that culture), can open a non-literal world without losing the literal, can produce resonance. Basho's 'lightness', the Japanese aesthetics of yugen etc. , simplicity of diction, the fact that there is the requirement for the reader to infer quite a lot, the 'dreaming space'... maybe the Japanese aesthetic of makoto ('sincerity of the heart', as I understand it to mean) which doesn't seem to me to be an exclusively Japanese thing, but a human thing, evident in what I regard as the best EL poetry of all sorts.

Here is the haiku which sucked me into haiku in the first place:

picking up a jellyfish
my lifeline
clear and deep

- Dhugal Lindsay

I had no idea that he was a marine biologist at the time. That was later, and extra. I simply recalled in a flash the reality of holding washed-up moon jellyfish on my palm as a child (I tried it once with a small blue stinger, too, but learnt quickly not to), being fascinated how one could see all the lines on one's palm magnified through this once living, but totally transparent creature, and how that set me to wondering. I recalled my own everyday, childhood connection with the sea and the things of the sea. Here was a transparent poem! And it included me, asked me in!... when what I had been hearing were the long, passionate, dramatic, opinionated and confessional or political pieces of performance poets which totally excluded me or the persona-boosting puns and faux-naivety of performance 'haiku', and what I had been reading were the clever (but 'disjunctive') manipulations of language-based poetry which, though interesting, too often led me up the garden path and left me there. (with some exceptions) So this haiku was a breath of fresh, sea air to me. That was my beginning, and that haiku is still my 'totem haiku', being the first I connected with.

Since then, I've connected with many haiku, and am gradually appreciating the various different styles. The first two Japanese haiku (in translation) that I really connected with were:

the sea darkens:
the voices of wild ducks
are faintly white
(Basho)

Yes! I thought, I've noticed that with seagull's voices when a storm is immanent. (again, early on, the connection with intensely perceived personal experience was what touched me deeply... which included, btw, watching part of the making of the film, 'On the Beach', and seeing it with parents at a drive-in on its release here, and afterward being frightened when the sea turned dark and oily-looking, believing that any minute there would be dead seagulls washing in as evidence that the fall-out was coming, as it had to do, over the sea to my beach. I was often over at the beach by myself.)

and

Mother, I weep
for you as I watch the sea
each time I watch the sea

(Issa... I think the translator was Sam Hamill)

...which never fails to move me, for several reasons which are irrelevant here. It's that repetition, that 'each time', that shows me the veracity of this. It rolls in and breaks as inevitably and primarily as the waves do, and repeats in the rhythm of waves of the sea, unending. It's no mere sentiment expressed here.

More recently, the haiku which has stuck in my mind is:

spring thunder
young magicians
reappear

- Peggy Willis Lyles

I take the 'young magicians', first, on a literal level. Children 'being magicians', as they are wont to do, and 'disappearing' ("You can't see me, I'm invisible!") but reappearing pretty smartly at the sound of thunder, not really having control of the weather, but maybe half-believing that one of their spells has caused the thunder. The veracity of this, the humour of this, the gentleness with which we co-operate with and protect children's imaginative play. Then I think of how a particular atmosphere and sound can bring memories alive into the present, and that the children of long ago can return, reappear in all their vitality (even if one's 36 year old son and his mates are staring one in the face), and how this seems magical, too, and somehow confirms that nothing experienced is ever lost, and what logically seems gone is not, and (to use TS Eliot's words) "all is (really!) always now". And the surprising reality is, if one's grown children or grandchildren do happen to be present, the same thought/ perception, strikes them at the same time, without a word being spoken beforehand. Test it! These are shared experiences, and so good, because unpremeditated, simple human love is alive in them, is magically 'resurrected' in them.

So what are the Japanese traditions operating in Peggy's poem? I have forgotten, if I ever knew, apart from simplicity of language, the use of images, the gap, the space between 'spring thunder' and the rest which both invites the reader to infer and links the sense the power of a natural thing, thunder, with the vitality and imaginative power evident in children.

I could go on (mercifully, I won't  :D) Another I've discovered recently that appeals to me is Peter Yovu's:

mosquito she too
insisting insisting she
is is is is is

What does that owe to Japanese tradition? Conciseness and brevity, to be sure. The recognition that other things are alive and real and that we might invest them with a persona, maybe via Issa? The humourous reflection on ourselves and all the noise we make to show ourselves and each other that we're here, that we are? Are these things essentially Japanese? I don't think so, but expressing them with such brevity seems to be a superb thing that we've gained from Japanese tradition.

- Lorin

I'm not suggesting that people who write and read elh need to make an intellectual study of kigo, or become experts in Japanese language, literature and history. Other people have done that for us. Their books are in print, available in libraries, and some are online. I've been to a few haiku club meetings here in the U.S., and at every one the discussion has touched on kigo, for example. Since the information's out there, I think it's important to understand what it all means.

Lorin, my relationship to the haiku genre is similar to yours. Believe me, I'm also missing a lot. Dreaming space and sincerity of heart are important to me. Intellectually-based haiku, lacking other layers and a human element, I find mostly uninteresting. In my own haiku, I don't use kigo in the true sense of the word, but often use a seasonal reference as an anchor to nature and season.

I'm also a reader of haiku, and here's where this discussion becomes, for me, more nuanced. In the intro to this thread, Dave wrote:

QuoteAs a reader, I like to learn about all elements of Japanese haiku, including elements that cannot be translated, such as Japanese syntax, rhythms, literary references, and cultural associations.

Me too. Let's take for example the wonderful Basho hokku:

the sea darkens--
a wild duck's call
faintly white

which you and I and many others connect with. I find it translated in Makoto Ueda's Basho and His Interpreters. It's accompanied by a biographical sketch on the opposing page, and followed by two pages of commentary by different critics. Not a hard book to find, I ordered it from an online bookseller named after a river. I'm not, nor do I desire to be, an academic. Once informed by the commentaries, whether I agree with them or not, I'd have to be incurious not to take another look at the poem, and possibly gain a different understanding of it. I might learn that the poet wrote in a headnote, "When I was at Atsuta in Owari Province, people invited me to go boating and enjoy the year-end seascape." I might learn that Sanga claimed, "there is an infinite amount of yugen in this scene."

And so, when Dave writes:

QuoteAs a reader, I like to learn about all elements of Japanese haiku, including elements that cannot be translated, such as Japanese syntax, rhythms, literary references, and cultural associations. As a writer of haiku  in English, however, I am more interested in the elements of Japanese haiku that can be translated, such as seasonal  references, certain approaches to imagery, certain ways of expressing feeling,  a sense of "now," and the effect of surprise (based the Haiku Guide by Patricia Donegan and Kazuo Sato).

I can only agree with his sensible sentiment. My very next thoughts:

once I know a little about Japanese kigo, that knowledge will inform my understanding of elh seasonal references.

much of what I know and learn finds a way into what I write, sometimes in surprising ways.

Wish I had time to write more, I'd like to comment on the Dhugal Lindsay poem. later...

You might like to check out the haijinx spotlight feature of Dhugal's:
http://www.haijinx.com/I-2/lindsay/index.html (http://www.haijinx.com/I-2/lindsay/index.html)

There are several pages and soundclips of Dhugal in Japanese and English.

Alan
Founding Editor, Haijinx

Thanks for that link, Alan. I agree with Lindsay's comments, so well expressed. Many of my favorite haiku have an undertow of humor born of compassion.

a few days have passed since our last posts here, but I'd like to revisit:


picking up a jellyfish
my lifeline
clear and deep

   - Dhugal Lindsay


about which Lorin wrote:

QuoteHere is the haiku which sucked me into haiku in the first place

and also:

QuoteI simply recalled in a flash the reality of holding washed-up moon jellyfish on my palm as a child (I tried it once with a small blue stinger, too, but learnt quickly not to), being fascinated how one could see all the lines on one's palm magnified through this once living, but totally transparent creature, and how that set me to wondering. I recalled my own everyday, childhood connection with the sea and the things of the sea. Here was a transparent poem! And it included me, asked me in!

Lindsay invites us in with simplicity, transparency. There are children in New York City, a mere half hour's drive from the Jersey shore, who have never seen or held a jellyfish. Still, Lindsay has chosen an experience many people have in common, and many more understand and associate with summer (at least around here, and I think in most regions).

The discussions on this forum demonstrate that many elh poets think of Japanese kigo (the only haiku kigo imo) as a complex code, impenetrable without research and footnotes. "picking up a jellyfish" might lack a Japanese kigo's vertical axis (constructed of many poems, commentary, volumes of saijiki, and rote recitation). I think it's worth noting that to the Japanese, kigo, especially the more popular ones, are meant to be transparent. Just so, Lindsay's seasonal reference (I'm aware that "moon jellyfish" has been suggested as an Australian "kigo").

And so, I agree that Lindsay's haiku invites us in. As I read the poem, it has multiple layers. I'm not so sure I agree they're all transparent, but as with a multi-layered Japanese haiku that begins with a friendly and familiar kigo, he assures us the water's warm and we are free to dive down to the more opaque layers as well. An example of an opaque layer: people unfamiliar with Lindsay's personal history probably wouldn't understand he's musing, among other matters, on his career path as (I think) a marine biologist.

And as has been pointed out, Lindsay first composes in Japanese, and in the original his seasonal reference is a kigo, I suppose.

Good points Mark, and yes Dhugal writes and thinks (and feels in Japanese) when he composes a haiku.

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

She said recently in Brussels: "A haiku must have kigo -- without a kigo, it is not a haiku."  Madoka Mayuzumi is currently on a mission in the neighbouring country of France to get their haiku into 17 syllables and contain a kigo.

Alan

.

More about Madoka Mayuzumi
and her talk in Brussels

http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2010/11/mayuzumi-madoka.html

.

I was invited by the Japanese Embassy, although I wasn't able to go due to work, but she also gave a talk in London. 

I'd be interested to know if she wanted English-language haiku to be 5-7-5 English-language syllables, and only have a kigo from a Japanese saijiki?

Would anyone care to comment, or report on her visit instead?

Alan

p.s.  I'm a big big fan of her haiku by the way! ;-)

I must confess I am unfamiliar with Ms. Mayuzumi and her work.

If she does want EL haiku to be 17 syllables with use of kigo from a saijiki then I think she is missing the point of multiculturalism within poetry, surely the beauty of english haiku is that we are able to put a different spin on what we perceive a haiku to be. Don't get me wrong I understand the need to aspire to the many virtues of what makes japanese haiku so wonderful, but not at the sake of ignoring our own culutral identities and afilliations.   

This section of her discussion is incredibly meaningful:

"In haiku, there is that empty space between the lines, which speaks at least as much as in the lines themselves. The writer will say the bare minimum -- and then, the educated reader will understand what has been said and what has not been said.

A haiku must have this elusive "blank" or space which expresses meaning as much as the words contained in the haiku. In translation, she called this the "literature of silence" or of "things unsaid" (in Japanese, yohaku 余白 ) -- but the educated reader would understand what had been left unsaid. Haiku is a joint undertaking between the author and the reader."

This "elusive blank space" is so important in composing fine haiku.  "literature of silence" is an immense thought and rather foreign to the western mind.  These are key ingredients that make the difference between writing average and superior haiku ... imho.

Don

I agree with John's point wholeheartedly, and also with Don's pointing out the pointers for certain key aspects of haiku.

Gabi Greve attended the event in Brussels in Belgium, and as a Japanese speaker she may be able to clarify if the French are now expected to only compose 17 French syllable haiku.

I would be curious if she repeated the same demand in London, England and alas I was unable to go due to work pressures, and being a freelance.

Alan

Gabi Greve attended the event in Brussels in Belgium, and as a Japanese speaker she may be able to clarify if the French are now expected to only compose 17 French syllable haiku.

Dear Alan, if you read my entry carefully, you will notice that I did NOT attend the meeting in Brussels, nor in Paris, nor in London or elsewhere did I have the pleasure to meet Madoka sensei. (Only on Japanese TV, since I live in Japan, not Europe.)

She is in Paris since April 2010 as a Japanese government-designated "cultural envoy" .
She might be availabel to answer herself, through the Embassy in Paris?

Gabi

Apologies Gabi, it sounded like you were there with Isabelle.

As someone who keeps the kigo database of haiku in languages other than just Japanese, what are your own opinions about syllable count in non-Japanese haiku.

Should French and English haiku be only 5-7-5 syllable constructs?

Alan

Should French and English haiku be only 5-7-5 syllable constructs?
Alan

Dear Alan and all,
you can read my detailed thoughts  to this old problem here

http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/theory-5-7-5.html

5-7-5 ... go shichi go ... in Japanese

short-long-short ... in other languages
(Unless 5 7 5  feels quite natural without padding.)

This is my simple advise for the problem of adapting the Japanese pattern of 5-7-5 beats to any other language.

A Japanese haiku comes in three sections:

kami go (the top five section)
naka shichi (the middle seven section)
shimo go (the lower five section)

Wheather to write this Japanese in one line or three lines or from top to bottom or from right to left ... depends on the paper you are given, independent of  the structure of the haiku.

The details are here:
http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/one-sentence-haiku.html


Hope it helps.
Gabi

.

Thanks for putting this up.  It's very useful, I'll put it up on the links page.

What do you think of Madoka Mayuzumi stating that the French should only write 5-7-5 syllables in their language (plus kigo); and does she say the same for English-language haiku, and for Romance haiku?

Alan

I am afraid I can not answer for Madoka sensei.

You have to ask her about the meaning of her words.
As I said, maybe the embassy in Paris will put you in contact ?

Gabi

@Gabi,

One of the aspects of writing ELH that I've been looking very carefully at these days is whether we should count : ; ... , – !  etc as beats when considering the meter of S/L/S or 5/7/5.

Example,

one string ...
a street man plays
for money

Line one is generally considered 2 syllables;  but, if you count the ellipsis, then you could say it is three.  The "ya" and other markers of such nature, are counted in Japanese haiku.  They are not words (per se) but sounds of accent, ma or space - for timing.  It seems, that the symbols being used to replace or emulate them in other languages, should be considered as syllables as well.  ?

This poem is a classic 2/3/2 beat (depending how you read it etc) that would become a 3/3/2 beat if the ellipsis was considered to be a ELH kireji.

Don

aaa, you are really going to make life complicated for the ELH poets, dear Don !  ;)

The two languages are just sooooo different

I guess counting a ! as one "beat" will not sit well with the ELH poets, I wonder what they think.

furu ike ya ..  that is normal haiku japanese, counting 5 (whatever), one for the kireji YA
marumi kana ... counts 2 for the kireji KANA
maru mogana .. counts 3 for the kireji MOGANA


old pond     - count 2
this old pond      - count 3
old pond -   ?how many for the -? take your pick !
old pond --  ?how many now ?? count two for the -- ?

old pond !  ?how many, since ! is a longer break than - ...  count two or three ?

I give up ...  for now   ;D   ;D.

Gabi

The Cut in Japanese Haiku

http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/06/kireji.html
.

Don has a good point, as Japanese writing includes punctuation as written words not symbols as is common in English for instance.

Does a question mark become a beat or syllable counting exercise?  What do you count, the symbol ? or the word <question mark>.  How many beats, stresses, syllables are there in ? or question mark

I don't think it's complicated so much as not being made clear by those who demand seventeen syllables in whatever language system(s) you use.

Is number crunching more important than content?  Some Japanese women write tanka shorter than haiku, and some write haiku longer than tanka.  They are respected writers, so where does that leave us, and also where does that leave other Japanese writers who might not be aware of this?

Alan

Quote from: Don Baird on February 06, 2011, 11:03:49 PM
@Gabi,

One of the aspects of writing ELH that I've been looking very carefully at these days is whether we should count : ; ... , – !  etc as beats when considering the meter of S/L/S or 5/7/5.

Example,

one string ...
a street man plays
for money

Line one is generally considered 2 syllables;  but, if you count the ellipsis, then you could say it is three.  The "ya" and other markers of such nature, are counted in Japanese haiku.  They are not words (per se) but sounds of accent, ma or space - for timing.  It seems, that the symbols being used to replace or emulate them in other languages, should be considered as syllables as well.  ?

This poem is a classic 2/3/2 beat (depending how you read it etc) that would become a 3/3/2 beat if the ellipsis was considered to be a ELH kireji.

Don

Ha, Don.  ;D Of course a caesura mark, dash, points of ellipses, colon etc. can't count as sounds, like kireji do. They are not spoken, they are not sounds -- simple as that.

If you listen to regional English dialects around the world, you'll find that there are equivalents of kireji in English, though these are not formally recognised or formally designated: 'eh' , whether as question indicator or statement indicator is common to Queensland Australian English (and to some parts of Canada, I'm told). 'Innit' (with the 't' sounds disappearing in a glottal stop) is a common one in some parts of England. 'Like', and 'hum' are a couple with USA origins.

old pond eh
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(Queensland English)

old pond innit
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(London Cockney English?)

old pond like
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated, 'Beat' English' ?)

old pond hum
a frog jumps into
the sound of water

(USA-originated - wherever Gene Murtha comes from)

old pond ya-know
a frog.....

(USA & Australia)

old pond see
a frog jumps into....
(Australia and NZ)

old pond right
a frog...

(NZ & Australia)

old pond yunnerstan
a frog ...
( Mafia Movie English)

old pond yeah?
a frog...

(probably international English)

I'm sure there are many more. But we don't usually use these in written English and most of us wouldn't want to.

- Lorin

old pond lol
a frog...

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 05, 2011, 05:26:12 PM

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

Alan

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html



- Lorin

Hi Lorin,

Quote from: Lorin on February 07, 2011, 04:01:03 PM

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 05, 2011, 05:26:12 PM

I think it's time for another article (or even book) on kigo. 

I love discussion on kigo, but we are continuously told we can not only not do it, but we shouldn't even attempt it.

Even young and famous Madoka Mayuzumi is telling us that without kigo, a poem cannot be a haiku.  But then what is a kigo if someone who is Japanese (and in Japan) creates a new seasonal reference, is that also not a kigo?

Alan

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

hey Alan, just want to say, before you "get going"

I think, for the reasons I mentioned above and more, that the seasonal references we use in elh don't correspond to kigo because elh doesn't benefit from the rich history, mutual understanding, and long and strong "vertical axis" of jlh. Don't know if that's a weakness or a strength; it's just different. Does it mean I think we can't learn from and reference and emulate (if we choose) japanese kigo? No.

and I have no problem calling elh haiku.

(you're quick, Alan, I edited some of the above before your answer. No real change in meaning, though)

Thanks Mark, appreciate your reply. ;-)

Mark says:
"I think, for the reasons I mentioned above and more, that the seasonal references we use in elh don't correspond to kigo because elh doesn't benefit from the rich history and cultural context of jlh."

I actually, respectfully, disagree.  I think it may actually be a fallacy.  I'm in love with Japanese haiku (and pre haiku).  After all, isn't Basho called the Shakespeare of Japan. ;-)

The non-Japanese world (and we'll exclude ancient cultures of Korea and China) have an immense cultural background.  Indian culture is comparable to Japanese culture (as well as Chinese and Korean) and I feel they, in particular, have the opportunity to start the long road to their own pukka kigo before the Western world.

But we in the West, particularly the European bothered stock, have precedent in our own way, after all European stock isn't that simple, and much of it tracks back to leaving the heck away from the Great Wall. ;-)

Mark says:
"Does that mean I think we can't learn from and reference and emulate (if we choose) japanese kigo? No."

Absolutely!

We've only been going at the haiku since Shiki imported many Western techniques into Japanese haiku.  Okay, there is a move from Japanese haiku writers to dispense with the Western techniques absorbed into Japanese haiku, but there are many examples that can never go away.

I'm told Shakespeare really works well, if not better, in Klingon (which is a full language whether you like Star Trek or not). 

I'd actually be fascinated for anyone who is a trekker or a trekkie to translate good contemporary (or classic) haiku/hokku into Klingon, because many of the Victorianesque translations are something that should be excised.

Alan

Spring would be traps, either animal traps or anti-personnel ones, which a lovely SAS attached officer showed me, gotta love those mercury switches. ;-)

So we got to excise kigo from our EL vocab, and it doesn't end there.  Interesting that chibi's argument grows ever stronger.  I always thought he had a point, though I'm rather fond of the haiku. 

Alan

The title of this post is
Kigo and Saijiki

The non-Japanese world (and we'll exclude ancient cultures of Korea and China) have an immense cultural background.  Indian culture is comparable to Japanese culture (as well as Chinese and Korean) and I feel they, in particular, have the opportunity to start the long road to their own pukka kigo before the Western world.
kigo is the soul of haiku (in another thread, I think)
Alan


Have a look at the India Saijiki to see the efforts of regional poets to introduce their culture throughout the six classical seasons.
http://indiasaijikiworlkhaiku.blogspot.com/

Have a look at the Kenya Saijiki (also some other tropical regions)
with four seasons and a lot of cultural keywords to reflect their daily realities in haiku
http://kenyasaijiki.blogspot.com/

These  are just two  examples to show that with a positive attitude,  co-operation and hard work of regional poets, regional saijiki can be compiled.

I want to thank all poets who have tried to incorporate new kigo in their regional haiku life.

I would like to encourage the THF to begin compiling the
Great American Haiku Heritage Saijiki!

Small beginnings are here
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/02/north-america-saijiki.html

Gabi


.

Thanks Gabi, what a terrific response!

I second that as I love American style haiku, and the culture behind America and American haiku.  After all don't the States and Japan share an equal love of baseball also immortalised in haiku? ;-)

Also, I'd really like a grounded British and Irish, or English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish series. ;-)

Alan

That is a really good idea Alan. Just wondering though with all the regional accents and dialects in England and other parts of Britain whether there would have to be certain ground rules to establishing an ofiicial english or british kigo list 

Gael seems to have accidently kickstarted it, and I know David Cobb has created a saijiki, although I haven't seen it in depth.

God forbid someone starting to control this.  I think a central point where people could add information would be great to start with. ;-)

Alan

Is there no way of doing an official british saijiki through the BHS if the intention is to have an official and unified source.   

David won the last Biennial Sasakawa Prize for Original Contributions in the Field of Haikai.  I wasn't a judge on this one, but I'd probably have voted for it.

Weblink:
http://www.haikusoc.ndo.co.uk/comp.html#bsh

If you are not a member, I recommend you join:
http://www.britishhaikusociety.org.uk/

You could apply to be attached to the committee and instigate this.  I'd like it to be open, a little like Gabi's, rather than something autocratic. 

If I was a multi-millionaire and there was someone of the quality like the lovely Bill Higginson, I'd gladly pay a generous life stipend for someone to put together something like this. 

Alas I'm only a jobbing poet (mostly haiku and renga/renku etc...) ;-)

But seriously, check it out with the BHS.

I really think culturally this could be an important document utilising the tool that kigo is, and even if it took fifty years or more, it's worth starting now.

Alan

We could always get lucky Alan and one of us win the lottery (not that I ever play the bloody thing, but we can all dream of one day stumbling upon a winning ticket!)

I will check it out with the BHS, and see what comes of it.

There are some very interesting points being posted. Very educational for one as green as I.

I think your greeness might be an advantage in many ways.  We should talk offlist about a possibility of a saijiki or at least a useful collection of place names, seasonal activities etc... via the BHS. 

Alan

David Cobb - Equinox Press
http://www.thomcobb.f2s.com/davidcobb/

Euro-Haiku by David Cobb
http://www.inpressbooks.co.uk/eurohaiku_david_cobb_i018739.aspx



Saijiki of Europe
http://europasaijiki.blogspot.com/


There are separate saijiki for various dialects of Japan,
so the same could be done for other countries.


Let me know if I can be of help.
(it is all volunteer work, I remember a friend promising to help with  a region of USA, then after a few contributions giving up because "it is so much clerical work involved" ... ).  ;D

Thanks for your positive attitude, Alan and John !

Gabi

Hi Gabi,

We're contact you offlist as I think we've swayed from the original topic of Lost and Found in Translation.
But on the other hand, if we hadn't gone off topic, this project would not have happened, so thank you THF. ;-)

I've emailed you, and the project would have to be long term as it is unpaid, with no funding or grant.  My business is as a jobbing freelance poet (mostly with haiku and renga/renku) so I can only spend so much time.

But the project will happen! ;-)

Thanks so much for your passion, enthusiasm, and encouragement, and for John McManus's stepping into this project.

I think it will be baby steps because the project is enormous, but will show much raw material there is in the U.K. and Ireland over the last couple of thousand years or more. ;-) 

It's not ten thousand years I know, but I'm sure we will find plenty of material nonetheless.

Alan

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 07, 2011, 04:15:16 PM
Hi Lorin,

Quote from: Lorin on February 07, 2011, 04:01:03 PM

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

I'm confused now, Alan. Where have I mentioned Queensland 'Strine', or Queensland anything in this post? (or are you referring to my other post re kireji in response to Don, which was in jest though to make a real point, and I believe I gave quite a few examples from Australia as well as the distinctive Queensland 'eh'.) But in any case if I did want to mention Queensland 'Strine' or anything else, what's the fact that I live in Victoria got to do with it? I'm Australian, I've lived in FNQ, my haiku book was published by a Queensland Press (PostPressed- John Knight) Goodness, you live in England, yet mention Queensland quite a lot yourself.

I suggest you take your annoyance & frustration out on the real 'kigo police', not on me, but on those who are forever meddling in EL haiku, especially with beginners, telling them that what they write isn't haiku if it hasn't got a kigo and urging them to make up lists of 'kigo' without telling the whole story of what kigo is. Don't rely on what I say. Ask Gabi what it takes for a kigo to be recognised as such in Japan. Ask Gabi about hon'i. Read some of the contemporary Japanese haiku poets, such as Ban'ya Natsuishi:

"Season words indicate season. Take, for example, tsuyu (rainy season) which indicates the long summer rainy season, about the time when plums ripen. The reader associates it with high humidity and discomfort on the main island of Japan from June to July. However, in countries without tsuyu, the word's meaning is empty. Additionally, in areas without much rain, such as Hokkaido in Japan and Europe, the time for tsuyu is the peak of summer: with long daylight hours, and in some areas a summer festival is held.
Seasonal words, therefore, are keywords only expressing locality. That is because the unique climate of a particular area (like Japan, the U.S., or Europe) cannot be set as a standard for the world; it is merely one aspect of the global environment and of the diverse cultures in the world.
The Japanese inclination towards season words, including words indicating small animals and plants, came from animism: respecting spirits in not only human beings and animals, but also other elemental forms like rocks, water, fire, air, and the sun. Respecting and appreciating everything existing in nature have strongly and naturally endured in the Japanese' consciousness of the 20th century.
Of course all living things including animals, plants, and things in nature are not necessarily associated with seasons. Rather, some poets find intrinsic values and universality in them. Therefore, I have asserted and now would like to stress again that the term, "keyword" should be used to refer to both kigo (season words, expressing seasons) and muki (non-season words, expressing anything other than seasons)." (bolding mine)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/criticism/natsuishi1.html

If you want to shoot your mouth off, from your short and narrow experience of haiku in Australia, on what can be kigo for Australia, then go ahead. But I suggest that you at least read John Bird's thoughtful essays on the subject. There are some obvious contenders, of course , 'Australia Day' eg, and 'Anzac day' for both Australia and New Zealand, but I think that John Bird puts it plainly & succinctly enough:

"Perhaps we could get all Australians to standardise kigo on Canberra, our national capital; pigs might fly." - John Bird (of NSW, btw, who has lived & worked in Victoria as well as other places)

The Great Australian Saijiki, Ha. The Great American Saikjiki, ha. Canberra the standard for season in Australia? Washington the standard for season in the USA? Or perhaps Maine, being culturally older? What about those haiku poets from Texas, Georgia or Florida? When it's snowing in Washington, then it's snowing in South Carolina, by decree? D'you really think they'd all agree to that kind of centralisation?

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.

1.
Little japanese apple tree
saying quietly:
no need to go to Kyoto

Kenneth White - The Bodhi Notebook - in the southern Spring  (KW is a Scot, quite respected in France.)

Perhaps you can do it for England, because it is a smaller area, like Japan. Perhaps you can even get the Scots and the Irish to subscribe to your saijiki. Good luck.

I will continue to call EL haiku, haiku. If some want to be sarcastic and call it 'HA. I. KU <grin>' because it's not Japanese , then that's an annoying form of xenophobia to me, but I don't really care. It's been a loan word in English for some time and it will remain as such, just as English loan words in Japanese will remain as such. To keep those who don't believe that EL haiku is haiku happy, I will continue to refer to Japanese haiku as haiku, a foreign word, to make the distinction.

- Lorin

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.
Lorin

I am afraid I can not agree with this assessment.
But let this not lead to any further discussion.

Gabi
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

" (I'm aware that "moon jellyfish" has been suggested as an Australian "kigo")." - Mark

As far as I know, Mark, I was the first Australian to use 'moon jellies' and 'moon jellyfish' in haiku ( I might be wrong, but I had not seen any 'moon jellies' or 'moon jellyfish ' haiku in English before I did) The 'moon jellies' one was posted on two forums some years ago, but not published for until Ron Moss submitted it last year as part of a haiga :

http://www.dailyhaiga.org/haiga-archives/548/-breathing-by-lorin-ford-australia

Another, written last year, will be published in the next Shamrock Haiku Journal., in March.

But although I know when the bulk of these wash in (after getting worn out breeding, I believe) in Victoria and Tasmania, I know I have never suggested it as an Australian 'kigo'.

I might suggest that it's a mid-to-late Summer seasonal reference for Southern Australia, just as I might suggest that stingers are a Spring-Summer seasonal reference for FNQ. I would never suggest that anything apart from some social event occasions such as Australia Day, Anzac Day and Melbourne Cup Day (yes!  ;D) might even approach having some resemblance to kigo.

Naturally , I 'm wondering who it is who might've suggested that 'moon jellyfish' is an "Australian kigo".

Gabi, in all these years, you have only spoken about the saijiki centralised on Tokyo (and previously, on Kyoto). You have never once mentioned, not even hinted,  until now that Japan has various regional saijiki. If these exist, would you please give details? And if these exist, which of the various regional saijiki do Western translators use?

- Lorin

 ???
Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki. <== Lorin

Lorin, I believe as a matter of fact there are regional sections to the a Japanese saijiki.  The Japanese are well aware of, for example, that hanami (cherry blossom viewing) happens at different times in different regions and at different altitudes and climes.  Therefore, it is important in understanding Japanese haiku, from what region the poem has been written when using "hanami" as kigo.  There, also, are regional kigo with encyclopedic explanation and example.  

I believe, also, there is a process by which a word/phrase candidate is accepted officially to the saijiki (sometimes there is considerable debate).  I am not completely familiar with the process, but, I suspect it is similar to EL dictionary commitiees for sanctioning words and definitions to be included in an official unabridged dictionary.

I suppose you have seen a Japanese saijiki?  Big thing... usually a hardcover and expensive; but, now one is available completely electronically.  I would venture to say that Dr. Gabi Greve is a better source for what is in a Japanese saijiki as I have only seen one briefly in my stay in Japan and only the abridged pocket editions on ginko with other haiku writers in Japan.  Unfortunately, my reading skill for Japanese is limited to mostly recognizing "の", so, I relied on their patient and gracious translations/transliterations and paraverses.

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.

As to seminal work and effort on gathering and presenting kigo and seasonal reference words and phrases, my hat is off to Dr. Gabi; and, her work would be a great foundation to use for the saijiki-kigo "idea" throughout the world.

(An aside to Gabi sama -- I am gathering more information on indigenous words and phrases (potentially to qualify as candidates) in the Southeastern region of the USA.  I have asked a writers group, The Living Poets Society, of which I am a member, to give example of such words and phrases.  I hope to have some reply at our next monthly meeting.)

Yours in poetry.

Ciao... Chibi

Quote from: chibi575 on February 07, 2011, 09:01:51 PM

This may seem mean spirited (my apology), but if you are not concerned about kigo and what is potentially lost and found in translations (of Japanese poetry) for the lack of understanding kigo, then, I am very confused about your comments? If you are truly not concerned, then silence would be a powerful verification of that feeling.

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.


Ciao... Chibi

Hi Dennis, don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm not concerned with kigo. I am quite passionately involved (all too often) and I'm also continually thinking about it. I haven't got to the bottom of it all. I think Gabi's database is a great thing and the most reliable source I have to learn about kigo (Japanese) from , & also to correct notions of particular "kigo" words that have been mistranslated into English, but which people use just because they're on an EL kigo list.

I don't have Japanese. I rely on translations and the information passed onto me from various sources, including Gabi.

What I don't believe in is the creation of 'instant kigo'. I don't believe that kigo can be 'created' for the English language. Season words, yes. Keywords, yes. But not kigo, in any real sense of kigo. Kigo are based on centuries upon centuries of Japanese literature (and founded from seasonal references in Chinese literature before taking on their specific Japanese nature) They are not simply season words, words which evoke a season, but a coded way of referencing old literature and even mood.

Check out the last 'seashell game' thread again. Fay A's 'ants out of a hole' doesn't just indicate Spring, but also a mood, 'The Joy of Spring'. Kigo are a complex code system.

What I am against is the unnatural forcing of kigo without the culture, something I believe should evolve, if it is going to. I don't believe that Joe Blow from Darwin or Mary Smith from Hobart or Me from Melbourne can get together with a few mates from their poetry group and draw up a list of 'Australian kigo'. Who are they speaking for? Better that we observe the seasons etc around them and write poems. One day, those poems  might be the foundation for Australian kigo, who knows? But that , surely, is up to future generations of readers. A list of seasonal keywords from their region would be a better & more workable thing, though less important sounding than a saijiki, that's how I see it.

We already get complaints from the Japanese that Westerners don't use kigo properly, don't understand kigo, and I think that for most of us, that's the case. So until we have our own authentically, why fake it?

- Lorin

Kigo are based on centuries upon centuries of Japanese literature (and founded from seasonal references in Chinese literature before taking on their specific Japanese nature)
Lorin


I do not agree with this statement.
for example

reiboo, air conditioning ... has not been around for centuries, at least not here in Japan.
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2010/05/air-conditioning-reiboo.html

What it takes for any word to become a KIGO, in Japan and elsewhere, I guess, is the fact that someone uses it in haiku.

And then someone else to pick it up from there and add it to a saijiki.

There are many "season words" in Japan which are NOT (or not yet)  kigo for haiku ...

Gabi
.

OK, Gabi...'air conditioning' is a kigo.  :D Obviously, air conditioning has not been around for centuries.

Yet air conditioning could not be added to a saijiki, couldn't be a kigo, if that kigo culture didn't already exist beforehand, and that kigo culture is centuries old and provides the base on which the current monolithic kigo structure is built. 'Air conditioning' as a 'late Summer' is an addition, from relatively recent times.

Who decided that 'air conditioning' is a kigo? Why is it a kigo for 'late Summer', since office buildings, movie theatres, large hotels and department stores, eg, world-wide use air-conditioning all year round? Possibly because enough poems were published with 'air conditioning' in the context of 'late Summer'?

How many new kigo have been added to the 'big saijiki' in the past 110 years? Perhaps there isn't a lot left in Japan that's not a kigo these days (I don't know, only speculate)

We do need to know about Japanese kigo, and I truly appreciate your work in translating it. But I see no basis for building an Australian saijiki, let alone an EL saijiki, until we have a large body of work to draw upon.

"What it takes for any word to become a KIGO, in Japan and elsewhere, I guess, is the fact that someone uses it in haiku.

And then someone else to pick it up from there and add it to a saijiki." - Gabi

Well, at least the horse & the cart seem to be the right way around there. How different it would be for me to declare that 'moon jellies' is a late Summer kigo for all of Australia? I claim that it is a late-summer seasonal reference for Victoria and Tasmania, possibly also for SA and NSW, but no more. Gradually, over time, when others write & have 'moon jellyfish' haiku written & published, we will get an idea of whether it has kigo potential or not. (Considering that the oceans are warming and that this favours the proliferation of jellyfish of all kinds, it might end up being a different seasonal indicator in 50 years or so)

- Lorin

ps... since Dave's title at the beginning of this thread is 'Lost and Found in Translation', I don't see that the discussion about kigo in relation to EL haiku is irrelevant. Part of the problem with kigo, when related to EL haiku, is that it was translated into English simply as 'season word', when in fact 'season word' is inadequate in conveying the full function of kigo in Japanese haiku, even if 'season word' is a literal translation.

As Gabi herself is wont to say, "kigo is not the weather report".

- Lorin

Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

Hi Lorin,

Not quite sure what all this is about.  We've all moved on from sarcasm and/or irony. It proved a useful vehicle for something useful to come out.

A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc... and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere.

Alan

Quote from: Lorin on February 07, 2011, 08:10:07 PM

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 07, 2011, 04:15:16 PM
Hi Lorin,

Quote from: Lorin on February 07, 2011, 04:01:03 PM

Alan, as far as I know, a 'kigo' is only a kigo if it's listed in a a major saijiki, along with the haiku which the kigo appears in. Unless the compilers of saijiki are also the haijin who create the new kigo (& this could very well happen!) then the aspiring creator of new kigo
would need to wait for the official recognition in order for his/her seasonal reference to become a kigo. Once it's in, it is officially a kigo, for all of Japan.

Some groups in English-speaking countries, or regions of the larger countries, have made their own 'kigo' lists, usually based on translations & mistranslations of Japanese kigo with a few local seasonal words or phrases thrown in, or words and phrases adapted from eg. the native peoples of such countries, such as 'hunger moon'.

Some have not. I quote from John Bird's sensible essay, 'Coming Clean on Kigo':

" And who may elevate a word to the status of 'Australian kigo'? An Hungarian tourist? The local cloudcatchers haiku group? Does AHS have the interest, expertise and clout to arbitrate?"

http://users.mullum.com.au/jbird/dreaming/ozku-about-kigo.html

- Lorin

I am confused.  You mention only Queensland Strine yet you are from Victoria?  Okay, next, I'm beginning to wonder if chibi and Mark Harris are right, going by what you say.

We don't do haiku, cannot mention kigo, pretty much any other Japanese word, term, phrase, relating to haiku and haikai literature.

What we do is funny little very short terse prose wannabe poems.  Okay, I can live with that.

So the "kigo police" lol, I thought I and others only had to deal with the Haiku Police (in general), only say a kigo is a kigo if a small number of people allow a real seasonal reference with vertical axis, which we may not be able to say even though it's not a Japanese term, allow to be designated a kigo.  Wow, the parallels in other areas is intriguing. ;-)

Don't even get me going on what can be an Australian kigo. ;-)

Alan

I'm confused now, Alan. Where have I mentioned Queensland 'Strine', or Queensland anything in this post? (or are you referring to my other post re kireji in response to Don, which was in jest though to make a real point, and I believe I gave quite a few examples from Australia as well as the distinctive Queensland 'eh'.) But in any case if I did want to mention Queensland 'Strine' or anything else, what's the fact that I live in Victoria got to do with it? I'm Australian, I've lived in FNQ, my haiku book was published by a Queensland Press (PostPressed- John Knight) Goodness, you live in England, yet mention Queensland quite a lot yourself.

I suggest you take your annoyance & frustration out on the real 'kigo police', not on me, but on those who are forever meddling in EL haiku, especially with beginners, telling them that what they write isn't haiku if it hasn't got a kigo and urging them to make up lists of 'kigo' without telling the whole story of what kigo is. Don't rely on what I say. Ask Gabi what it takes for a kigo to be recognised as such in Japan. Ask Gabi about hon'i. Read some of the contemporary Japanese haiku poets, such as Ban'ya Natsuishi:

"Season words indicate season. Take, for example, tsuyu (rainy season) which indicates the long summer rainy season, about the time when plums ripen. The reader associates it with high humidity and discomfort on the main island of Japan from June to July. However, in countries without tsuyu, the word's meaning is empty. Additionally, in areas without much rain, such as Hokkaido in Japan and Europe, the time for tsuyu is the peak of summer: with long daylight hours, and in some areas a summer festival is held.
Seasonal words, therefore, are keywords only expressing locality. That is because the unique climate of a particular area (like Japan, the U.S., or Europe) cannot be set as a standard for the world; it is merely one aspect of the global environment and of the diverse cultures in the world.
The Japanese inclination towards season words, including words indicating small animals and plants, came from animism: respecting spirits in not only human beings and animals, but also other elemental forms like rocks, water, fire, air, and the sun. Respecting and appreciating everything existing in nature have strongly and naturally endured in the Japanese' consciousness of the 20th century.
Of course all living things including animals, plants, and things in nature are not necessarily associated with seasons. Rather, some poets find intrinsic values and universality in them. Therefore, I have asserted and now would like to stress again that the term, "keyword" should be used to refer to both kigo (season words, expressing seasons) and muki (non-season words, expressing anything other than seasons)." (bolding mine)
http://www.worldhaiku.net/criticism/natsuishi1.html

If you want to shoot your mouth off, from your short and narrow experience of haiku in Australia, on what can be kigo for Australia, then go ahead. But I suggest that you at least read John Bird's thoughtful essays on the subject. There are some obvious contenders, of course , 'Australia Day' eg, and 'Anzac day' for both Australia and New Zealand, but I think that John Bird puts it plainly & succinctly enough:

"Perhaps we could get all Australians to standardise kigo on Canberra, our national capital; pigs might fly." - John Bird (of NSW, btw, who has lived & worked in Victoria as well as other places)

The Great Australian Saijiki, Ha. The Great American Saikjiki, ha. Canberra the standard for season in Australia? Washington the standard for season in the USA? Or perhaps Maine, being culturally older? What about those haiku poets from Texas, Georgia or Florida? When it's snowing in Washington, then it's snowing in South Carolina, by decree? D'you really think they'd all agree to that kind of centralisation?

Don't forget that there are no regional saijiki in Japan. One nation, one saijiki.

1.
Little japanese apple tree
saying quietly:
no need to go to Kyoto

Kenneth White - The Bodhi Notebook - in the southern Spring  (KW is a Scot, quite respected in France.)

Perhaps you can do it for England, because it is a smaller area, like Japan. Perhaps you can even get the Scots and the Irish to subscribe to your saijiki. Good luck.

I will continue to call EL haiku, haiku. If some want to be sarcastic and call it 'HA. I. KU <grin>' because it's not Japanese , then that's an annoying form of xenophobia to me, but I don't really care. It's been a loan word in English for some time and it will remain as such, just as English loan words in Japanese will remain as such. To keep those who don't believe that EL haiku is haiku happy, I will continue to refer to Japanese haiku as haiku, a foreign word, to make the distinction.

- Lorin

Hi Chibi,

I have to agree!  Gabi has been patiently gathering a massive tome of information (which I hope is backed up on a spare harddrive <grin>).

I know from Bill Higginson what a massive undertaking The Haiku Seasons Project was (an understatement from me), and what he did in such a short time to bring out those two books.

Setting aside arguments over kigo, Gabi's resource is a great source of information, and encourages both seasoned haiku writers and people who derive great benefit from haiku in general.

Gabi also does a lot of other great work behind the scenes. ;-)

Alan

Quote from: chibi575 on February 07, 2011, 09:01:51 PM

To be honest, I am continuely questioning direction and goal in the "haiku community" throughout the world... it is my curse and my blessing.  I love haiku.

As to seminal work and effort on gathering and presenting kigo and seasonal reference words and phrases, my hat is off to Dr. Gabi; and, her work would be a great foundation to use for the saijiki-kigo "idea" throughout the world.

(An aside to Gabi sama -- I am gathering more information on indigenous words and phrases (potentially to qualify as candidates) in the Southeastern region of the USA.  I have asked a writers group, The Living Poets Society, of which I am a member, to give example of such words and phrases.  I hope to have some reply at our next monthly meeting.)

Yours in poetry.

Ciao... Chibi

Hi John,

Yes, you can see we are all passionate.  If something doesn't happen now, it won't happen. ;-)  As in Japan it took centuries, it can only happen elsewhere if we start as well.

It has already happened, e.g. David Cobb's compilation (well-respected around the world):

The Biennial Sasakawa Prize for Original Contributions in the Field of Haikai

This award was administered by the British Haiku Society with funds provided by The Great Britain Sasakawa Foundation. The award came to an end with the 2003 Prize, which was won by David Cobb, for his study of English Seasonal images. David writes: "It's intended as a working document, in which I put forward a number of familiar words/concepts that might work for us as the accepted kigo do for the Japanese. Some of these are illustrated by haiku from a number of different British writers, and some are left blank for others to illustrate with the best examples they can find at any time in the future." David visited Japan and gave talks on the progress of his project in October 2004.

Thanks John, for stepping in, and I feel someone fresh to the scene can be an invaluable enabler, to move this forward. ;-)

Alan

Quote from: John McManus on February 08, 2011, 02:04:37 AM
Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

Hello, all,

I have been following this thread with interest, although I'm too stupid to contribute to the conversation in any worthwhile or meaningful way.  But something has been nagging at me, so I thought I'd ask a question.

If kigo has a cultural aspect (and from reading this thread, it appears that at least some haiku practitioners think it does), how is kigo to ever be developed in the immigrant countries (I'm thinking the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and even England herself) when there is such a "melting pot" (as we used to say back in the day) of cultures, compared to Japan, which was closed to most foreigners and hence outside influence for what, 200 years?  From where is a consistent viewpoint that would allow the compilation of culturally-agreed-upon kigo going to arise?  Am I missing something here?

Just wondering.

cat

Good points as usual Cat! ;-)

re England, it's always been a melting pot, since the Celts arrived, then the Angles, Saxons, vikings first generation, vikings second generation, more vikings a la Rollo's mates, and descendents (William etc..)  from Normandy, plus immigration from traders from the lowlands 10th century onwards.

I think the same can be said for any country really.  India was invaded by the Mongols after all (aka Moghuls). Then the Ottoman Empire took over from the Byzantine Empire (the Roman Empire still officially exists today, but mostly collapsed 1453 and 1461 A.D.).

I seriously think in the 21st Century we have to think differently.  Also someone and his mate, in Japan, must have started something several centuries ago, which then attracted a third bloke (it was very male orientated back then) and then a forth and so on. Then this idea that became kigo in Japan would have been so successful a committee took it off all these people and forced a centralised saijiki.  There are parallels in Christianity (but that's another story). ;-)

Japan is not dissimilar in geography etc... to the U.K. and if we don't start something now, just like that bloke and his mate several centuries ago, then it will always have the same argument.

I don't think a number of us mind if this takes centuries, what's 800 years amongst friends after all?  But back on a serious note, the genie is out of the bottle (Matsuyama Declaration, and before that the French and Dutch, Blyth, imagists, beat poets etc...) and won't be going back.

If we don't do this, the term haiku will continue to be derivative doggerel to most people, and the same could happen to kigo anyway.

Alan

GRITS!!!

What the hell?   ::)

hominy yankee


Please forgive the tacky (sticky and cultural faux pas) of this post, but, I've proposed "grits" as a regional seasonal word, perhaps as the "all season" variety, although mostly cold weather seasons depending on the region.

Now, what does that have to do with THF Subject: Lost and Found in Translation?  Just try to translate that meaning from my short poem at the beginning of this post without having some idea and history of "grits", "hominy", and "yankee" in relationship to The South. 

So, Lorin and others, questioning relevance of the "kigo" discussion in this particular forum... I rest my kigo in your saijiki!!

I love haiku... I write/read/translate haiku and ELH ("forku" as Colin coined it)  ;D

I MUST use a saijiki and dictionary in translating Japanese poems or risk totally missing the feelings-meanings of the author; and, for that same reason as someone caring about feelings-meanings in others poems it would help tremendously if a concise world encyclopedia of such would exist for other readers/writers/translators (not to mention editors, bless there halos and black hearts).

[The opinions expressed by me in this forum are soley mine and not necessarily the sponsors of THF.  I take sole/soul responsibility for its content.  ::) ]

Now, if I could only figure out how to be the character Bill Murray played in "Lost in Translation"   :o

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 08, 2011, 04:08:26 AM
Hi Lorin,

Not quite sure what all this is about.  We've all moved on from sarcasm and/or irony. It proved a useful vehicle for something useful to come out.

A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc... and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere.

Alan

Hi Alan,
            I'm not sure what you're not sure of, or even what you think 'this' is. What I've written is in English and clear enough, I would've hoped, since I took the time to address your posts.

I'm pleased to hear that you've 'moved on' from sarcasm or irony, if that's what your previous post in response to me involved, but I don't know who else is involved in your statement that 'we've all moved on'. Gabi, perhaps, in relation to her oft repeated HA. I. KU < grin>)? Has Gabi 'moved on'? If so, has she also suddenly lost her voice? Are you Gabi's spokesman now?

I don't see any evidence of any "group of us", whom you're claiming to be speaking for now, or of any "number of us" who are thinking of either kigo or seasonal references "as a collating tool". 

" A group of us got to thinking about kigo, or seasonal reference etc...and a number of us are thinking of this as a useful collating tool, regardless of opinion elsewhere. " - Alan

Quite a few people I know of, including myself, have been "thinking about kigo" and "seasonal reference" for some time, btw, though I see no need to say 'a group of us' and wonder why you do.

And whilst I can understand a wish to collate either kigo(Japanese) or seasonal references (EL), I can't for the life of me understand how either of these could be a "collating tool"... a tool for collating what?

My whole point is that kigo and seasonal reference are two different things, so it's not "kigo, or seasonal reference etc etc or whatever". You choose to dismiss this out of hand, without addressing the issues, but now run kigo & seasonal reference together as if there were no distinction. I'm not sure why. Perhaps you simply haven't understood a word I've said? Or perhaps you don't want to?

- Lorin

Hi Lorin,

Just going to respond to this part of your commentary:

I don't see any evidence of any "group of us", whom you're claiming to be speaking for now, or of any "number of us" who are thinking of either kigo or seasonal references "as a collating tool".

The posts have been clear that John McManus is enthusiastic about a possibility of the British Haiku Society developing a collection of season word/phrases for use with haiku.  It needn't be constantly reported here, as this is an American based foundation to raise awareness of haiku internationally.

But for anyone who hails from England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc... I think it's a grand exercise (to paraphrase Wallace and Gromit). ;-)

Alan

Quote from: John McManus on February 08, 2011, 02:04:37 AM
Lorin, I can see by your posts you are very passionate on this subject.

I am not going to pretend to have a broad working knowledge on the inner workings of kigo. What I was thinking when I was discussing with Alan the possibilities of a unified british saijiki was if we were going to try to compile a saijiki it would be best to do it through an official body like the BHS and discussed at greater length by my elder and betters so that we may kickstart our own poetic traditons within british haiku instead of getting accused of stealing/borrowing/imitating or corrupting others.

   

John, I've been considering the relationship of kigo, which is Japanese and quite complex, and EL haiku for some time. We need to understand as much as possible about kigo to really read Japanese haiku and we need to know about it in order to write renku, too. Gabi's WKDB is really good for learning about Japanese haiku and kigo, and the associations and 'essential qualities' of kigo.I thoroughly recommend Bill Higginson's Haiku World for anyone beginning EL haiku,too.

I still don't know in any depth how kigo is used. That would take not only learning Japanese to a high degree of literacy but also immersing myself in Japanese history and culture. I rely on whatever information I can find in English.

Yet we also need to apprise ourselves of the facts that kigo is inseparable from Japanese culture, a culture unlike any in the West which had a long period of isolation from the rest of the world, had a system of centralised authority and a social culture which easily endorsed or submitted to the decisions of that authority. Kigo, in its seasonal aspect, was focused on what things of nature happened when in Kyoto, the seat of government (then later, on Tokyo). If the cherry blossomed in the 2nd week of whatever month in Kyoto, then that was standardised for the whole of Japan. It was all standardised, by consensus.

It will never happen in Australia that writers will agree that the jacaranda (not a native, but a common street tree) blooms in the first week of December, say. A writer in Cairns will have it blooming when it blooms in Cairns, a Brisbane writer when it blooms in Brisbane and so on. Even in the UK, I have my doubts that a writer in Aberdeen and a writer in Cornwall will agree as to what week the bluebells bloom. And why should they? Will these two writers agree on what the essential meaning and mood of bluebells is? Which UK poet/ writer of the past will be chosen as the one having the definitive last word on what bluebells symbolise, will henceforth be a code word for?

Listing season words or references for your area/ region is a great communal thing to do with your fellow poets. But season words/seasonal references are not kigo, so be careful to understand the difference & think it through before committing yourself to anyone's "kigo" project.

I believe that English-language haiku, whilst it has its roots in Japanese haiku, is developing continually...and in relation to Japanese haiku, both ancient and modern, as some groups of Japanese haiku writers have been developing in relation to Western poetics since the early 20th century. It's a lively thing, there is great interchange going on. I also believe that the local, the regional, the experienced and observed is a vital part of EL haiku and I try to encourage this, rather than a homogeneous 'nature' which is the same everywhere.

cheers,

Lorin

Quote from: Alan Summers on February 08, 2011, 12:33:00 PM
Hi Lorin,

Just going to respond to this part of your commentary:

I don't see any evidence of any "group of us", whom you're claiming to be speaking for now, or of any "number of us" who are thinking of either kigo or seasonal references "as a collating tool".

The posts have been clear that John McManus is enthusiastic about a possibility of the British Haiku Society developing a collection of season word/phrases for use with haiku.  It needn't be constantly reported here, as this is an American based foundation to raise awareness of haiku internationally.

But for anyone who hails from England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc... I think it's a grand exercise (to paraphrase Wallace and Gromit). ;-)

Alan

Well, Alan, I see that you've changed your wording from kigo to "a collection of season words/ phrases". I have no argument with you now that you've done that.

- Lorin

Just some further information

the history of Japanese Saijiki
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/07/history-of-saijiki.html


Kidai and Kigo　季題と季語
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2007/05/kidai-and-kigo.html


Gabi

Thank you Lorin, for your informative and on point response.

I was mulling over the whole Kigo debate in my head and am still intrigued by the idea of a list of celebratory days, traditions and images that can anchor particular facets of british culture into a seasonal reference for british haiku writers. But as I say in previous posts it would have to be discussed at greater lengths with people within the british haiku community who are far wiser and cleverer than myself on such matters.

 

Hi John,

Quote from: John McManus on February 08, 2011, 04:03:40 PM

I was mulling over the whole Kigo debate in my head and am still intrigued by the idea of a list of celebratory days, traditions and images that can anchor particular facets of british culture into a seasonal reference for british haiku writers.

Correct!  Regardless of immigration, which enforces culture, not diminishes it, from Celts, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans (Rollo's viking descendents); Flemish; Irish; African etc... we have an incredible amount for season words/references, which I believe long term (even if it's 1000 years, gotta start sometime) will become kigo.

The genie is out of the bottle regarding haiku, and if we don't push onwards and upwards, the people using haiku as doggerel in seventeen syllables will triumph over what we sometimes have to call literary haiku.  The same will happen with kigo, it will be owned by people who want to authenticate their haiku with seventeen syllables, and further authenticate it by using what they believe is kigo.

I'm one of a number internationally who regularly hold various types of haiku actitivities, and online and elsewhere, there are constantly those who do not recognise haiku as anything but seventeen syllables, and will mostly use the names of seasons as their kigo, or mention snow, ice, winter, summer, spring all in one haiku.

If a British and Irish kigo reference base is created, and becomes used on a regular basis, especially by the big mainstream poets, it will improve the image of haiku across the board.

We've all met major poets, some of whom won't write anything less than seventeen syllables etc...

QuoteBut as I say in previous posts it would have to be discussed at greater lengths with people within the british haiku community who are far wiser and cleverer than myself on such matters.

Please don't put yourself down John. ;-)  A fresh perspective is invaluable.  It would be great to communicate with various British and Irish haiku poets, and I'll bring this up with a few at the big reading that my wife is attending as well.

We already have a great source if you look at all the Haiku Calendars published by Snapshot Press that contain British and Irish haiku (I have them).  If we start now, slowly but surely, future generations will build on this, and yep, even if it's several centuries from now, we'll have a great record.  It's gotta start sometime, so why not now. ;-)

Alan

 I have but one haiku to my credit, but I read. Kigo is not important to me, personally, or even season words. What is important to me is being attuned to nature the best I can and seeing what comes up. But, I'm mostly a reader, and I found these comments taken from an interview Roadrunner did with Robert Hass. I guess you could call him a "mainstream" poet. His context is N (and S) America, but I don't think he means to be exclusive about that.


RR: Do you think that in the future a poet writing haiku in English (as their main poetic form) can achieve notability, within the wider arena of literary culture (why or why not)?

RH: I don't see why not. Though I am inclined to think that short poems, even short poems with a seasonal reference and a 5-7-5 syllabic structure, written in English can't be, strictly speaking, haiku. Or to say it another way, the haiku is still acclimatizing itself, in this country, to the cultures of American poetry. When Basho began to write, there was already an eight hundred to a thousand year tradition of poetry and art in Japan to give resonance to the brief seasonal words on which haiku depends and a pre-industrial culture that involved quite close observation of the seasons and a set of religious and cultural rituals embedded in those seasons. This condition doesn't obtain in English-speaking North America (or Spanish-speaking South America, where there have also been many experiments with the haiku form.) I expect something unexpected will eventually evolve from our admiration for and attempts to translate the practice of the short Japanese poem.

RR: As with poetry in general, the sheer volume of publication is high, yet quality is too often mediocre. Would you have any suggestions for the future, for editors and poets?

RH: Yes, high standards for oneself, generosity toward others, except for editors who need to practice high standards and courtesy.___RR: Haiku are generally taken to be a poetics of nature, and often take aspects of the natural world as a focus or topic; could you discuss the question of haiku and nature, poetry and nature, in light of recent revelations of global warming and as Bill McKibben put it, "the end of nature?"

RH:  One of the arguments for the cultivation of haiku, I suppose, is that attention to nature has become a moral imperative. McKibben is good on this subject and the great text is still the essay, "The Land Ethic" in Aldo Leopold's Sand Country Almanac. That book, especially the essays "Thinking Like a Mountain" and "Good Oak" and "Song of the Gavilan" are also useful texts for thinking about how to naturalize an imagination of nature in North American poetry. In so much of poetry and thinking about poetry right now, there is a good deal of appropriate skepticism about the assumptions behind realism as a literary mode and therefore about the whole question of what we do when we think to represent nature. It might be useful to let this tradition— and the range of anti-realist practices from surrealism to language poetics— enter the practice of haiku, if only to take away the sort of easy wow! poem that tends to be the first stage of our attempts to appropriate the form. Allen Ginsberg's notion that the blues lyric is the American version of haiku might also be helpful in this connection. See his effort at what he called "American sentences."

Dear Tray,

You couldn't space out your post a bit for readers to follow better, and maybe use the bold function for the initials of each person?

Many of our readers will find it difficult to follow otherwise.

Thanks for posting it and yes Robert Hass is what you could call a mainstream poet, and former Poet Laureate.  I highly recommend:
The Essential Haiku: Versions of Basho, Buson, & Issa (Essential Poets)
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Haiku-Versions-Basho-Buson/dp/0880013516 (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Haiku-Versions-Basho-Buson/dp/0880013516)

You can also catch this at Modern American Poetry:

Robert Hass on Haiku
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haas/haiku.htm (http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haas/haiku.htm)

It takes from his book the comments made on kigo.

Alan

Lost and Found in Translation --

haiku and hokku

One of the false steps (which have started the stumble of transmission/transmutation from Japan to the rest of the world is not distinquishing haiku from hokku.  This sets the slippery slope from the start.

Haiku is Shiki and after Shiki (stand alone short poem)

Hokku is before Bashou (first part, usually, of a linked poem).

Shiki distinguished the difference and defined the haiku genre.

Without this essential understanding we start unwittingly confused. 

Alan, even in Robert Hass's work he does not make this essential distinction.  Ok...ok... I know, the word "haiku" has superseded "hokku" in common and popular discussion.  I contend this is in part the root of what non-Japanese people misunderstand and therefore continue to flounder (I feel) with truly understanding the Japanese genre.

The works of Bashou sited by Robert Hass (all due respect), and his interpretation/translation are at best odd to me because I have seen the original Japanese (which I think is another essential mistake if not shown, go look, with an OJD, Online Japanese Dictionary).

When I look at examples of "haiku" by Bashou, Issa, Buson, and others before Shiki, I feel, when that is done one is forced to the wrong impression of what haiku is and is not. 

Perhaps, historical reference as to the poems sited such as the haikai no renga from which these poems were taken (out of context) might have given a better indication of the actual genre.

In 1000 years from now, if written historical record remains accessable (after 2012 and beyond... ??), the "short" may be the only thing that stuck in short poems.  I think there is a principle in archaeology that states the more lengthy and complex a "work" over time the more and more will be lost in translation/tranportation.  (ok... I made that up but it would seem logical).  ::)

I admit, my initial introduction to "haiku" was simply three lines, vaguely 5-7-5, a frog leap, and Japanese.  I obliquely realized that since this genre originated in Japan, the best course to learn was go to the source, Japan.  Very few non-Japanese "haiku" writers took or could take that opportunity.  It is my basis of understanding; and, I desire to share this understanding.  BTW even in Japan, the hokku/haiku common term, haiku, is used.  There are layers of experience and literary abilities in the tens of thousands of Japanese haiku writers.  While in Japan, I found, "haiku circles" (which are rare outside of Japan in my experience).  The haiku circle is a group of haiku writers led be a designated teacher (usually so by committee membership, prowess, and publications).  This is a very old tradition and structure predating Shiki and Bashou, the change is the type of activity and the participant qualifications.  In Bashou's time, the usual activity was haikai no renga, but, in the modern haiku circle the activity is writing, voting, and discussion/lessons.  Let me add, that leading haiku circles was and is even now an "occupation" (my first teacher's major income at the time).

Hmmm... sorry, this is getting too lengthy, but, perhaps I will start a subject: The Japanese Haiku Circle?  Hopefully to borrow idea and material from "Lost and Found in Translation" and from other subjects.

Hi Dennis,

All good points, and nicely spaced out for others to read.

His book is one amongst many on the classic writers, so I just pick the good parts out.  When the book first came out, it was a surprise to me that Issa wrote haibun.  For some reason I didn't know this.

Some of the versions now look odd to me, especially in the Montage book, but as I'm a trained collator, I tend to enjoy collecting numerous books, both academic and populist, and absorbing them.

But you are right, he makes mistakes, even though he knows HSA members.  Ah well. ;-)

Alan